Transcript of the Virtual Worlds Education Roundtable: April 19, 2018
Topic: Open Forum
Join us for an open discussion of anything about virtual worlds and/or education.
Kali Pizzaro: Hi everyone, and welcome to the Virtual Worlds Education Roundtable. We meet Thursday 12 noon SLT for an hour. 8pm In UK, 3pm EST. VWER is a forum to educate and inform the community about issues that are important and relevant to education
Kali Pizzaro: This is a public meeting, so we will be keeping and publishing a transcript. The transcripts can be found at http://vwer.info. Please join the VWER group here in SL. If you are on Facebook, or Google+ please join our group there. Also find and post pictures to our Flickr group, facebook or Google+ and follow us on Twitter @VWER.
Kali Pizzaro: This weeks theme is Open Forum. Let’s introduce ourselves and then please talk about anything VW teaching, learning or latest news of events etc
Kali Pizzaro: Evelyn McElhinney, PhD, RN, Senior Lecturer in Advanced healthcare practice, Glasgow Caledoninan Uni Scotland
Marly (Marly Milena): Lots of voice problems recently in SL. Anyone know when it will be fixed?
Marly (Marly Milena): Niela Miller, M.S. Ed/Communications: Gestalt therapist, educational designer/facilitator, trainer, coach, multi-artist. Group in SL- Octagon:Creative Exploration. See http://www.peoplesystemspotential.com.
Beth Ghostraven: I’m Beth Ghostraven, middle school teacher-librarian in RL and owner of the Book and Tankard Pub in Victoria City, Caledon in SL; owner of Ghostraven Professional Attire, classic clothing for educators in SL (http://bethghostraven.com); Communications Chair for the VWBPE Conference; Communications Chair and Focus Sessions Producer for the ISTE Virtual Environments Network; and unofficial liaison between education groups in SL.For information on events for the educational groups that I work with, see the ISTE VEN Massive Open Online Calendar at http://venetwork.weebly.com/calendar.html; Twitter: @booklady9
I’ll be taking photos to publish with the transcript; if you have any objection, please IM me.
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): Lynne Berrett, NYC Metro area, owner of Inspiration Island, CEO of Whole Brain Health brain-training program. FB: Virtual Inspiration Island; website: http://virtualinspirationisland.org. Board Member NonprofitCommons
Kali Pizzaro: I hear you both but please note Beth has no access to voice
Marly (Marly Milena): We are chatting about horrible Vivox
Kali Pizzaro: yes it is a constant problem
Sheila Yoshikawa: I teach and research in the Information School, University of sheffield, UK
Beth Ghostraven: well, that’s ironic! using SL voice to complain about Vivox, lol
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): lol
Marly (Marly Milena): Hahaha
Kali Pizzaro: there has been a few issues recently with SL it was attacked a few weeks ago
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): yes Kali
Marly (Marly Milena): For those of us who depend on voice to teach, it’s a PITA
Kali Pizzaro: Suppose it happens to all. We have had it fairly good for the last few years I think. I have not had as much lag
Kali Pizzaro: ok so not sure everyone introduced themselves but lets get on anyway
Beth Ghostraven: Kali, I agree, it has been much better in the past couple of years
Marly (Marly Milena): Agree on lag
Kali Pizzaro: this is open forum this week so we can, and have 🙂 talk about anything
Sheila Yoshikawa: Ah I didn’t know about the attack
ThinkererSelby Evans (Thinkerer Melville): If you laid all the complaints in the world end to end, you still wouldn’t get anywhere.
Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): I understand there’s A LOT of work in SL (background systems)…. much is going to ‘Cloud’!
Kali Pizzaro: yeah a few weeks ago caused major disruption think LL blogged stating it was the worse they had ever had
Beth Ghostraven: yes a DDS attack
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): no its not
Sheila Yoshikawa: yes, I read about the cloud thing
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): now it is
Kali Pizzaro: So what do you think should change in SL to reduce some of the voice or other issues?
Sheila Yoshikawa: I don’t know enough the tech issues
Marly (Marly Milena): So, is there a trend toward better tech or do we have to resign ourselves to a roller coaster indefinitely?
Kali Pizzaro: I suppose that is what Sansar is
Sheila Yoshikawa: I think my university’s firewall blocks voice regularly, it seems rather random
Kali Pizzaro: yeah
Beth Ghostraven: Kali, no, I don’t think that’s what Sansar is. They want to avoid some of the mistakes they made setting up SL, but it’s not a replacement
Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): I’m sure.. we’re all STILL.. and will be on rollercoaster for some time… fact of SLife!
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): it is quite different I find
Marly (Marly Milena): I had breakfast with a friend this AM who asked me if i want to try his Oculus Rift with which he went into Sansar, greeted by a figure that zoomed up to him and scared the shit out of him initially. Then it got helpful
Sheila Yoshikawa: lol
Marly (Marly Milena): I am curious so I will try it to see what it’s like
Kali Pizzaro: sure @Beth but I suppose it is the better tech version if you like, as you cannot replace the infrastructure of SL only try to maintain and improve, no?
Marly (Marly Milena): Has anyone else done this?
Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): Sansar?
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): with glasses Marly?
Beth Ghostraven: I haven’t had the opportunity to try a VR headset with a virtual world yet
Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): no.. I havn’t.. my eyes are not good for it
Marly (Marly Milena): Yes, Oculus Rift
Sheila Yoshikawa: With my current setup I can’t get into Sansar without crashing
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): Without them it is disappointing
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): so far
Marly (Marly Milena): Something about peripheral vision, don’t quite understand…
Kali Pizzaro: https://www.sansar.com/ @Ricardo
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): I get motion sick easily so I am not rushing to try them
Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): I had read about Sansar… but not going to try it
Kali Pizzaro: not the full VR and VW experience
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): you can go in without glasses
Kali Pizzaro: I like to see my avatar
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): goggles?
Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): I had several eye surgeries.. and determined to be ‘mono-vision’ (RL)
Sheila Yoshikawa: I get motion sick but I’m ok with 3d glasses in the cinema so hope i will be ok
Kali Pizzaro: although first person view is good too
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): do you think so, Kali?
Kali Pizzaro: it is ok but i prefer third person I always play avatar based games that way too
Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): I doubt that Sansar will ever equate to SL in activity
Kali Pizzaro: i agree
Marly (Marly Milena): What I am waiting for, here in SL, are gestures that are matched to feeling states! Mitch Kapor (Linden–one of the developers of SL and a former psych student of mine—founder of Lotus I-2-3) was working on this at the 10th SL anniversary, plus realistic avie presentations. Anyone know what happened with that?
Sheila Yoshikawa: I’m experiencing these worlds vicariously via Draxtor and Strawberry Singh etc. when the stream field trips
Kali Pizzaro: Although some say difficult to learn it bizarrely is the simplicity of SL that is attractive and at the end of the day it is about the people as much as the place
Beth Ghostraven: Marly, I hope that would be optional–I have a glass face and it’s comforting to know that people here don’t know what I”m feeling all the time, lol
Marly (Marly Milena): Yes, Beth, hopefully, it would be an option one could choose.
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): Science Circle is talking about more ways to use gamification for college teaching — mostly about ways to assess learning that way–anyone here worked with assessment that way?
Sheila Yoshikawa: The bento thing does not seem to have improved things – people still having to control expression etc. via HUDsass
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): I am interested in learning more about ways to assess learning here
Beth Ghostraven: There is a Serious Games conference near DC in July that aims to address that, Liss
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): I should come Beth!
Marly (Marly Milena): Hasn’t Kali done that with her health instruction?
Kali Pizzaro: In some ways clinical simulation through problem based learning
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): I am talking about using games to teach
Kali Pizzaro: is serious game
Kali Pizzaro: when used in a VW
Beth Ghostraven: https://seriousplayconf.com/
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): ty beth
Kali Pizzaro: so the outcome is authentic and feedback similar to games takes you to the next challenge
Kali Pizzaro: so based on real world health issues
Kali Pizzaro: however it depends on how you define gamification
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): yes
Kali Pizzaro: However, there are many serious games now for health
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): I would like to know more about this
Sheila Yoshikawa: some students or indeed teachers gamify all assessment e.g. students seeing if you can beat the plagiarism detection, trying to get other people to tell you their marks so you can be competitive about getting the best marks
Kali Pizzaro: https://journals.lww.com/simulationinhealthcare/Fulltext/2016/02000/A_Systematic_Review_of_Serious_Games_in_Training.6.aspx
Sheila Yoshikawa: negative aspects of gamification
Kali Pizzaro: lol
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): ty Kali
Beth Ghostraven: I bought a copy of the Pandemic game to use with my board games course next week
Sheila Yoshikawa: yes loads of serious games, though I think many of them are really rather dull?
Beth Ghostraven: I think serious refers to the intent, not the gameplay
ThinkererSelby Evans (Thinkerer Melville): I wa trying to impress the teacher with quality of work, but still viewed it as a game.
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): you see, they bring science students into SL while the profs dont have to come in–need to have good ways to involve students yet provide grades
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): thanks for the link
Sheila Yoshikawa: there seems to be a lot of incentives to start creating new games all the time rather than using existing platforms (I mean research and business start up grants encourage that)
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): I will look further
Marly (Marly Milena): My wasband, Bob Horn, was a founder of Games and Simulations for learning back in the seventies!
Stranger Nightfire: anyone know if there is a good version of Bucky Fuller’s World Game around these days?
Marly (Marly Milena): I can ask him what he know about current stuff
Kali Pizzaro: here is the latest paper from Sara De Freitas https://www.j-ets.net/ETS/journals/21_2/6.pdf
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): ty Marly
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): and Kali again
Sheila Yoshikawa: thanks Kali
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): will let you know what I find out
Kali Pizzaro: Sara is well written and respected in the field
Sheila Yoshikawa: I think Mark Childs, who will be hosting here in 2 weeks time, also knows something about this area
Sheila Yoshikawa: @Kali yes she is, agree
Kali Pizzaro: so what else would folks like to speak about
Beth Ghostraven: I”m looking forward to hearing more from Mark, Sheila, thank you for setting that up
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): me too!
Kali Pizzaro: yes Mark is always interesting
Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): Anyone attending the SL Town Hall tomorrow?
Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): (is what I’m outfitted for… currently)
Sheila Yoshikawa: No, I didn’t pick that up
Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): 15 yrs.. birthday… convo with Ebbe (SL CEO)
Kali Pizzaro: is this a linden lab event?
Kali Pizzaro: ah
Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): yep
Kali Pizzaro: is it a secret location invite only like at VWBPE, or open to all?
Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): is info on .com site…. two sessions… all public
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): yes, I saw the announcement on some SL blogs
Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): there’s a blog on http://secondlife.com too
Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): with pre-questions for CEO
Kali Pizzaro: ah
Kali Pizzaro: so what will you ask if you go?
Kali Pizzaro: or what would you ask?
Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): I’ll just be sitting/listening
Beth Ghostraven: I wonder if he’ll say anything different from what he said at VWBPE last month?
Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): 🙂
Sheila Yoshikawa: https://community.secondlife.com/blogs/entry/2347-town-hall-event-with-linden-lab-ceo-ebbe-altberg-april-20/
Kali Pizzaro: thanks Sheila
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): Did you think,from his responses at VWBPE, that LL is now interested in working more closely with the education community?
Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): He (CEO) seems to be more active in-world.. than others before him
Sheila Yoshikawa: opeople are posting questions they want to ask him at https://community.secondlife.com/forums/topic/421065-a-conversation-with-linden-lab-ceo-ebbe-altberg/
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): Brett Linden is supposed to be the liaison?
Kali Pizzaro: @liss possibly although may be too late
Sheila Yoshikawa: agre @Ricardo, at least more than the last CEO
Beth Ghostraven: Liss, I did get that impression; hopefully that wasn’t just because the audience was educators
Kali Pizzaro: shiny new VR
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): they claimed they are committed to improving SL
Beth Ghostraven: I don’t think Brett is the liaison, exactly; he’s just head of PR
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): ah
Kali Pizzaro: which is often ignoring the research in VR which they could learn from
Marly (Marly Milena): Do you suppose Ebbe would be willing to meet with our VWER one time for an in depth discussion with us as educator representatives in SL?
Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): I watch recorded VWBPE interview.. is at .com site too
Kali Pizzaro: not sure he does any inworld live public talks now
Beth Ghostraven: Ricardo, what do you mean by “.com site”?
Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): http://secondlife.com
Kali Pizzaro: yeah you cannot just drop in
Kali Pizzaro: 😉
Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): (normal browser…. blogs and forums)
Beth Ghostraven: ok thank you :o)
Beth Ghostraven: Marly, I don’t see how that would be any different from his conversation at VWBPE
Sheila Yoshikawa: It looks like the town hall meetings ARE open and in SL
Marly (Marly Milena): Smaller group, more interaction, more opportunity for us to say what we really want in SL as educators
Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): There’s a LONG list of questions for him, now.. to address from that blog mentioned
Marly (Marly Milena): That’s different from a dialogue or discussion
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): he tends to be very non-committal about committing to anything 🙂
Beth Ghostraven: lol Liss
Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): yes.. Town Hall .. is an in-world event
Sheila Yoshikawa: At the bottom of the announcement about the town hall meetings with Ebbe it says ” In the coming months, we plan to hold additional conversations and meetups directly with many of our communities including Firestorm users/developers, Designing Worlds, Bay City and more. “
Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): (that’s normal for CEO’s… non-committal)
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): lol Ricardo
Sheila Yoshikawa: that’s how they get to be CEOs
Kali Pizzaro: ah ok interesting
Beth Ghostraven: why Bay City, I wonder?
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): removes her CEO tag
Sheila Yoshikawa: lol
Kali Pizzaro: ha
Kali Pizzaro: so that should be interesting then
Kali Pizzaro: if they do a number of talks
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): Bay City always plays a big role in SLBirthdays
Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): it’s a VERY Large venue… several hundred sits for avi’s
Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): (laggy?! hope not)
Kali Pizzaro: although sure how they attract educators back in significant numbers
Marly (Marly Milena): Never heard of it till now!
Kali Pizzaro: although it depends on what and who they mean by education, educators
Kali Pizzaro: if they mean university
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): they seem to be more involved in this birthday than in the past ones recently
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): which is a good sign
Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): It’s good to see them in-world…. they are techie types.. ya know?!
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): 🙂
Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): (btw.. I sort of techie.. is why you don’t hear from me often!)
ThinkererSelby Evans (Thinkerer Melville): I don’t see why educators would come back to SL when Kitely offers a sim of the same size for $15/month
Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): Ebbe.. seems very knowledgeable of SL’s hardware issues
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): good point Thinkerer
Kali Pizzaro: it depends on what they want to use it for Thinkerer I suppose it depends on whether you wish others to drop in or collaborate spontaneously
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): I have enjoyed hypergridding once I figured out how to do it
Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): yes.. it’s going to uphill battle for them to get back what was lost
ThinkererSelby Evans (Thinkerer Melville): And Kitely does not claim to have rights to everything you make.
Kali Pizzaro: sure
Sheila Yoshikawa: To change the topic, I am looking forward to Draxtor’s movie “Our Digital Selves” teasers at https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLI0b2jAH3oFtc6Fog2EP67uAhy7VX_rD5
Marly (Marly Milena): But Kitely does not have built in learning populations. Only SL offers that!
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): all those freebies in open sim!
Sheila Yoshikawa: sort of documentary
Kali Pizzaro: ha you beat me to it Sheila
Sheila Yoshikawa: I recognised a few people from the teasers 😉
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): is that about VAI?
Kali Pizzaro: this is important work and I am happy as it supports many of my findings – yah
Sheila Yoshikawa: it’s about SL and other virtual worlds, people’s relationship with their avatar
Kali Pizzaro: no lots of different places I believe – was it 30 people have had a space for the last 3 years and they have been following then
Kali Pizzaro: them
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): the newest trailer?
Kali Pizzaro: Tom and Donna who have done much work in SL –
Sheila Yoshikawa: takes the whole thing seriously so to speak, but as part of a professional and entertaining film
Kali Pizzaro: yes there are many folks who have a disability involved I believe
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): I saw Alice in the pictures–that is why I thought it was VAI
ThinkererSelby Evans (Thinkerer Melville): Learning populations: Educational communities of the virtual worlds, a database by the Community Virtual Library https://virtualoutworlding.blogspot.com/2018/04/2018-lib-edu-educational-communities-of.html
Beth Ghostraven: I think Tom Boellstorff’s project was to get disabled people who are in SL to create representations of their reality, as art, on an island that he owns. He’s been working with VAI, but I don’t think it’s specifically about VAI
Kali Pizzaro: http://www.ourdigitalselves.com/ this is the official site and the formal name of the research is Virtual Worlds, Disability, and New Cultures of the Embodied Self, and more informally referred to as Our Digital Selves.
Sheila Yoshikawa: yes I was trying to google for that site!
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): Ethnographia island?
Kali Pizzaro: yes
Beth Ghostraven: Liss, yes
Kali Pizzaro: so happy as I am about to write up my second study that investigated this but would have loved to have been involved in this
Kali Pizzaro: should be really interesting
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): I have been focusing on all the new research on loneliness — that is another great topic for SL
Kali Pizzaro: yes I am thinking of writing a proposal to study that
Beth Ghostraven: oh, I’m not familiar with that, Liss, what’s the research about?
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): The UK created a new Minister for loneliness for ex
Sheila Yoshikawa: lonleiness @Kali?
Kali Pizzaro: yes Sheila
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): the AARP research project focused on it in the US
Kali Pizzaro: Loneliness is the new epidemic
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): it has replaced ebola
Kali Pizzaro: we know from lots of research that being isolated and lonely increases mortality
Sheila Yoshikawa: https://www.aarp.org/research/topics/life/info-2014/loneliness_2010.html
Beth Ghostraven: hahaha I’d much rather be lonely than have ebola!
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): and reduces functioning
ThinkererSelby Evans (Thinkerer Melville): We can’t be lonely — got too many people to talk to about it.
Sheila Yoshikawa: 😉
Kali Pizzaro: there are many more recent surveys
Marly (Marly Milena): I hope they study the obverse, people like me who spend a majority of time alone but never feel lonely!
Kali Pizzaro: but pretty much similar findings
Kali Pizzaro: ah but their is a difference from being alone and being lonely
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): that is not a problem, Marly
Beth Ghostraven: Marly, yes
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): if you don’t have a problem, you don’t get funding
Marly (Marly Milena): Lots of people feel lonely in partnerships and families!
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): that is the point
ThinkererSelby Evans (Thinkerer Melville): No one in my apartment now — Am I alone?
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): what creates satisfying relationships?
Kali Pizzaro: NO you have a mad Scottish woman and a few other folks heh
Sheila Yoshikawa: there seems to be anxiety about young people who like being alone though, as if everyone’s got to be very social
Kali Pizzaro: hehe
Marly (Marly Milena): It’s an internal state like happiness, not really dependent on external circumstances, although many believe it is
Kali Pizzaro: however, having no connections has been shown to be bad for your health
Sheila Yoshikawa: @Selby, no!
Sheila Yoshikawa: lol Kali
Kali Pizzaro: even one connection is a buffer
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): even bad ones may be better than none, Kali?
Kali Pizzaro: if positive
Kali Pizzaro: yes
Marly (Marly Milena): Only yogis living in caves for years on end have NO connections.
Kali Pizzaro: even bad it relates to a sense of belonging
Kali Pizzaro: anyway
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): yes, some people thrive on bad relationships 🙂
Kali Pizzaro: as it is better than nothing
Sheila Yoshikawa: but you can feel very alone with people who are not on your wavelength at all
Kali Pizzaro: however many connections takes effort
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): my point about SL Sheila
Kali Pizzaro: so there tends to be an amount where we reach satiation but that is individual
Marly (Marly Milena): It would be very hard to live in today’s world with absolutely NO connections. And, of course, those with virtual connections have a built in way of socializing
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): that’s right Marly
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): the value of virtual connections
Sheila Yoshikawa: I have peeked at next week’s VWER and Camie has a reading for us!
Sheila Yoshikawa: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/avatars-will-soon-upend-the-role-of-teachers-and-transform-education-2017-04-06 ,”We will be reading and discussing “Opinion: Avatars will soon upend the role of teachers and transform education – What software, VR goggles and lots of very good coaches (once called teachers) can do to the classroom”, by Alex Salkever (vice president of marketing communications at Mozilla”
Sheila Yoshikawa: so that is the topic for next week
Wisdomseeker (Lissena): sounds great
Kali Pizzaro: @ Marly exactly hence my point of never using the term real world as it can be interpreted that relationships, meaning and experiences in VWs or other digital platforms are not ‘real’ and have no bearing on behavior etc
ThinkererSelby Evans (Thinkerer Melville): I am meeting with 10 other people talking about things that interest me. If I went downstairs, there would be 10 people around talking about things I am not interested in. I would be more alone there.
Sheila Yoshikawa: @Selby we are very happy to have you here!
Kali Pizzaro: Exactly Thinkerer
Beth Ghostraven: yes, good point
Marly (Marly Milena): Oh, no! I don’t think anything can substitute for the human interaction that happens between actual teachers and their students
Kali Pizzaro: and importantly Selby you choose to be here; it has not been prescribed by someone
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