2018-04-19 – Open Forum

Transcript of the Virtual Worlds Education Roundtable: April 19, 2018

2018-04-19 VWER - Open Forum_002

Topic: Open Forum

Join us for an open discussion of anything about virtual worlds and/or education.


Kali Pizzaro: Hi everyone, and welcome to the Virtual Worlds Education Roundtable. We meet Thursday 12 noon SLT for an hour. 8pm In UK, 3pm EST. VWER is a forum to educate and inform the community about issues that are important and relevant to education

Kali Pizzaro: This is a public meeting, so we will be keeping and publishing a transcript. The transcripts can be found at http://vwer.info. Please join the VWER group here in SL. If you are on Facebook, or Google+ please join our group there. Also find and post pictures to our Flickr group, facebook or Google+ and follow us on Twitter @VWER.

Kali Pizzaro: This weeks theme is Open Forum. Let’s introduce ourselves and then please talk about anything VW teaching, learning or latest news of events etc

Kali Pizzaro: Evelyn McElhinney, PhD, RN, Senior Lecturer in Advanced healthcare practice, Glasgow Caledoninan Uni Scotland

Marly (Marly Milena): Lots of voice problems recently in SL. Anyone know when it will be fixed?

Marly (Marly Milena): Niela Miller, M.S. Ed/Communications: Gestalt therapist, educational designer/facilitator, trainer, coach, multi-artist. Group in SL- Octagon:Creative Exploration. See http://www.peoplesystemspotential.com.

Beth Ghostraven: I’m Beth Ghostraven, middle school teacher-librarian in RL and owner of the Book and Tankard Pub in Victoria City, Caledon in SL; owner of Ghostraven Professional Attire, classic clothing for educators in SL (http://bethghostraven.com); Communications Chair for the VWBPE Conference; Communications Chair and Focus Sessions Producer for the ISTE Virtual Environments Network; and unofficial liaison between education groups in SL.For information on events for the educational groups that I work with, see the ISTE VEN Massive Open Online Calendar at http://venetwork.weebly.com/calendar.html; Twitter: @booklady9

I’ll be taking photos to publish with the transcript; if you have any objection, please IM me.

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): Lynne Berrett, NYC Metro area, owner of Inspiration Island, CEO of Whole Brain Health brain-training program. FB: Virtual Inspiration Island; website: http://virtualinspirationisland.org. Board Member NonprofitCommons

Kali Pizzaro: I hear you both but please note Beth has no access to voice

Marly (Marly Milena): We are chatting about horrible Vivox

Kali Pizzaro: yes it is a constant problem

Sheila Yoshikawa: I teach and research in the Information School, University of sheffield, UK

Beth Ghostraven: well, that’s ironic! using SL voice to complain about Vivox, lol

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): lol

Marly (Marly Milena): Hahaha

Kali Pizzaro: there has been a few issues recently with SL it was attacked a few weeks ago

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): yes Kali

Marly (Marly Milena): For those of us who depend on voice to teach, it’s a  PITA

Kali Pizzaro: Suppose it happens to all. We have had it fairly good for the last few years I think. I have not had as much lag

Kali Pizzaro: ok so not sure everyone introduced themselves but lets get on anyway

Beth Ghostraven: Kali, I agree, it has been much better in the past couple of years

Marly (Marly Milena): Agree on lag

Kali Pizzaro: this is open forum this week so we can, and have 🙂 talk about anything

Sheila Yoshikawa: Ah I didn’t know about the attack

ThinkererSelby Evans (Thinkerer Melville): If you laid all the complaints in the world end to end, you still wouldn’t get anywhere.

Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): I understand there’s A LOT of work in SL (background systems)…. much is going to ‘Cloud’!

Kali Pizzaro: yeah a few weeks ago caused major disruption think LL blogged stating it was the worse they had ever had

Beth Ghostraven: yes a DDS attack

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): no its not

Sheila Yoshikawa: yes, I read about the cloud thing

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): now it is

Kali Pizzaro: So what do you think should change in SL to reduce some of the voice or other issues?

Sheila Yoshikawa: I don’t know enough the tech issues

Marly (Marly Milena): So, is there a trend toward better tech or do we have to resign ourselves to a roller coaster indefinitely?

Kali Pizzaro: I suppose that is what Sansar is

Sheila Yoshikawa: I think my university’s firewall blocks voice regularly, it seems rather random

Kali Pizzaro: yeah

Beth Ghostraven: Kali, no, I don’t think that’s what Sansar is. They want to avoid some of the mistakes they made setting up SL, but it’s not a replacement

Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): I’m sure.. we’re all STILL.. and will be on rollercoaster for some time… fact of SLife!

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): it is quite different I find

Marly (Marly Milena): I had breakfast with a friend this AM who asked me if i want to try his Oculus Rift with which he went into Sansar, greeted by a figure that zoomed up to him and scared the shit out of him initially. Then it got helpful

Sheila Yoshikawa: lol

Marly (Marly Milena): I am curious so I will try it to see what it’s like

Kali Pizzaro: sure @Beth but I suppose it is the better tech version if you like, as you cannot replace the infrastructure of SL only try to maintain and improve, no?

Marly (Marly Milena): Has anyone else done this?

Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): Sansar?

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): with glasses Marly?

Beth Ghostraven: I haven’t had the opportunity to try a VR headset with a virtual world yet

Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): no.. I havn’t.. my eyes are not good for it

Marly (Marly Milena): Yes, Oculus Rift

Sheila Yoshikawa: With my current setup I can’t get into Sansar without crashing

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): Without them it is disappointing

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): so far

Marly (Marly Milena): Something about peripheral vision, don’t quite understand…

Kali Pizzaro: https://www.sansar.com/ @Ricardo

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): I get motion sick easily so I am not rushing to try them

Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): I had read about Sansar… but not going to try it

Kali Pizzaro: not the full VR and VW experience

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): you can go in without glasses

Kali Pizzaro: I like to see my avatar

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): goggles?

Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): I had several eye surgeries.. and determined to be ‘mono-vision’ (RL)

Sheila Yoshikawa: I get motion sick but I’m ok with 3d glasses in the cinema so hope i will be ok

Kali Pizzaro: although first person view is good too

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): do you think so, Kali?

Kali Pizzaro: it is ok but i prefer third person I always play avatar based games that way too

Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): I doubt that Sansar will ever equate to SL in activity

Kali Pizzaro: i agree

Marly (Marly Milena): What I am waiting for, here in SL, are gestures that are matched to feeling states!  Mitch Kapor (Linden–one of the developers of SL and a former psych student of mine—founder of Lotus I-2-3) was working on this at the 10th SL anniversary, plus realistic avie presentations. Anyone know what happened with that?

Sheila Yoshikawa: I’m experiencing these worlds vicariously via Draxtor and Strawberry Singh etc. when the stream field trips

Kali Pizzaro: Although some say difficult to learn it bizarrely is the simplicity of SL that is attractive and at the end of the day it is about the people as much as the place

Beth Ghostraven: Marly, I hope that would be optional–I have a glass face and it’s comforting to know that people here don’t know what I”m feeling all the time, lol

Marly (Marly Milena): Yes, Beth, hopefully, it would be an option one could choose.

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): Science Circle is talking about more ways to use gamification for college teaching — mostly about ways to assess learning that way–anyone here worked with assessment that way?

Sheila Yoshikawa: The bento thing does not seem to have improved things – people still having to control expression etc. via HUDsass

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): I am interested in learning more about ways to assess learning here

Beth Ghostraven: There is a Serious Games conference near DC in July that aims to address that, Liss

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): I should come Beth!

Marly (Marly Milena): Hasn’t Kali done that with her health instruction?

Kali Pizzaro: In some ways clinical simulation through problem based learning

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): I am talking about using games to teach

Kali Pizzaro: is serious game

Kali Pizzaro: when used in a VW

Beth Ghostraven: https://seriousplayconf.com/

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): ty beth

Kali Pizzaro: so the outcome is authentic and feedback similar to games takes you to the next challenge

Kali Pizzaro: so based on real world health issues

Kali Pizzaro: however it depends on how you define gamification

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): yes

Kali Pizzaro: However, there are many serious games now for health

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): I would like to know more about this

Sheila Yoshikawa: some students or indeed teachers gamify all assessment e.g. students seeing if you can beat the plagiarism detection, trying to get other people to tell you their marks so you can be competitive about getting the best marks

Kali Pizzaro: https://journals.lww.com/simulationinhealthcare/Fulltext/2016/02000/A_Systematic_Review_of_Serious_Games_in_Training.6.aspx

Sheila Yoshikawa: negative aspects of gamification

Kali Pizzaro: lol

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): ty Kali

Beth Ghostraven: I bought a copy of the Pandemic game to use with my board games course next week

Sheila Yoshikawa: yes loads of serious games, though I think many of them are really rather dull?

Beth Ghostraven: I think serious refers to the intent, not the gameplay

ThinkererSelby Evans (Thinkerer Melville): I wa trying to impress the teacher with quality of work, but still viewed it as a game.

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): you see, they bring science students into SL while the profs dont have to come in–need to have good ways to involve students yet provide grades

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): thanks for the link

Sheila Yoshikawa: there seems to be a lot of incentives to start creating new games all the time rather than using existing platforms (I mean research and business start up grants encourage that)

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): I will look further

Marly (Marly Milena): My wasband, Bob Horn, was a founder of Games and Simulations for learning back in the seventies!

Stranger Nightfire: anyone know if there is a good version of Bucky Fuller’s World Game around these days?

Marly (Marly Milena): I can ask him what he know about current stuff

Kali Pizzaro: here is the latest paper from Sara De Freitas https://www.j-ets.net/ETS/journals/21_2/6.pdf

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): ty Marly

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): and Kali again

Sheila Yoshikawa: thanks Kali

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): will let you know what I find out

Kali Pizzaro: Sara is well written and respected in the field

Sheila Yoshikawa: I think Mark Childs, who will be hosting here in 2 weeks time, also knows something about this area

Sheila Yoshikawa: @Kali yes she is, agree

Kali Pizzaro: so what else would folks like to speak about

Beth Ghostraven: I”m looking forward to hearing more from Mark, Sheila, thank you for setting that up

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): me too!

Kali Pizzaro: yes Mark is always interesting

Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): Anyone attending the SL Town Hall tomorrow?

Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): (is what I’m outfitted for… currently)

Sheila Yoshikawa: No, I didn’t pick that up

Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): 15 yrs.. birthday… convo with Ebbe (SL CEO)

Kali Pizzaro: is this a linden lab event?

Kali Pizzaro: ah

Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): yep

Kali Pizzaro: is it a secret location invite only like at VWBPE, or open to all?

Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): is info on .com site…. two sessions… all public

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): yes, I saw the announcement on some SL blogs

Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): there’s a blog on http://secondlife.com too

Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): with pre-questions for CEO

Kali Pizzaro: ah

Kali Pizzaro: so what will you ask if you go?

Kali Pizzaro: or what would you ask?

Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): I’ll just be sitting/listening

Beth Ghostraven: I wonder if he’ll say anything different from what he said at VWBPE last month?

Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): 🙂

Sheila Yoshikawa: https://community.secondlife.com/blogs/entry/2347-town-hall-event-with-linden-lab-ceo-ebbe-altberg-april-20/

Kali Pizzaro: thanks Sheila

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): Did you think,from his responses at VWBPE, that LL is now interested in working more closely with the education community?

Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): He (CEO) seems to be more active in-world.. than others before him

Sheila Yoshikawa: opeople are posting questions they want to ask him at https://community.secondlife.com/forums/topic/421065-a-conversation-with-linden-lab-ceo-ebbe-altberg/

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): Brett Linden is supposed to be the liaison?

Kali Pizzaro: @liss possibly although may be too late

Sheila Yoshikawa: agre @Ricardo, at least more than the last CEO

Beth Ghostraven: Liss, I did get that impression; hopefully that wasn’t just because the audience was educators

Kali Pizzaro: shiny new VR

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): they claimed they are committed to improving SL

Beth Ghostraven: I don’t think Brett is the liaison, exactly; he’s just head of PR

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): ah

Kali Pizzaro: which is often ignoring the research in VR which they could learn from

Marly (Marly Milena): Do you suppose Ebbe would be willing to meet with our VWER one time for an in depth discussion with us as educator representatives in SL?

Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): I watch recorded VWBPE interview.. is at .com site too

Kali Pizzaro: not sure he does any inworld live public talks now

Beth Ghostraven: Ricardo, what do you mean by “.com site”?

Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): http://secondlife.com

Kali Pizzaro: yeah you cannot just drop in

Kali Pizzaro: 😉

Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): (normal browser…. blogs and forums)

Beth Ghostraven: ok thank you :o)

Beth Ghostraven: Marly, I don’t see how that would be any different from his conversation at VWBPE

Sheila Yoshikawa: It looks like the town hall meetings ARE open and in SL

Marly (Marly Milena): Smaller group, more interaction, more opportunity for us to say what we really want in SL as educators

Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): There’s a LONG list of questions for him, now.. to address from that blog mentioned

Marly (Marly Milena): That’s different from a dialogue or discussion

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): he tends to be very non-committal about committing to anything 🙂

Beth Ghostraven: lol Liss

Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): yes.. Town Hall .. is an in-world event

Sheila Yoshikawa: At the bottom of the announcement about the town hall meetings with Ebbe it says ” In the coming months, we plan to hold additional conversations and meetups directly with many of our communities including Firestorm users/developers, Designing Worlds,  Bay City and more. “

Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): (that’s normal for CEO’s… non-committal)

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): lol Ricardo

Sheila Yoshikawa: that’s how they get to be CEOs

Kali Pizzaro: ah ok interesting

Beth Ghostraven: why Bay City, I wonder?

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): removes her CEO tag

Sheila Yoshikawa: lol

Kali Pizzaro: ha

Kali Pizzaro: so that should be interesting then

Kali Pizzaro: if they do a number of talks

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): Bay City always plays a big role in SLBirthdays

Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): it’s a VERY Large venue… several hundred sits for avi’s

Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): (laggy?! hope not)

Kali Pizzaro: although sure how they attract educators back in significant numbers

Marly (Marly Milena): Never heard of it till now!

Kali Pizzaro: although it depends on what and who they mean by education, educators

Kali Pizzaro: if they mean university

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): they seem to be more involved in this birthday than in the past ones recently

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): which is a good sign

Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): It’s good to see them in-world…. they are techie types.. ya know?!

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): 🙂

Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): (btw.. I sort of techie.. is why you don’t hear from me often!)

ThinkererSelby Evans (Thinkerer Melville): I don’t see why educators would come back to SL when Kitely offers a sim of the same size for $15/month

Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): Ebbe.. seems very knowledgeable of SL’s hardware issues

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): good point Thinkerer

Kali Pizzaro: it depends on what they want to use it for Thinkerer I suppose it depends on whether you wish others to drop in or collaborate spontaneously

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): I have enjoyed hypergridding once I figured out how to do it

Ricardo Inatti (AviNews): yes.. it’s going to uphill battle for them to get back what was lost

ThinkererSelby Evans (Thinkerer Melville): And Kitely does not claim to have rights to everything you make.

Kali Pizzaro: sure

Sheila Yoshikawa: To change the topic, I am looking forward to Draxtor’s movie “Our Digital Selves” teasers at https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLI0b2jAH3oFtc6Fog2EP67uAhy7VX_rD5

Marly (Marly Milena): But Kitely does not have built in learning populations.  Only SL offers that!

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): all those freebies in open sim!

Sheila Yoshikawa: sort of documentary

Kali Pizzaro: ha you beat me to it Sheila

Sheila Yoshikawa: I recognised a few people from the teasers 😉

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): is that about VAI?

Kali Pizzaro: this is important work and I am happy as it supports many of my findings – yah

Sheila Yoshikawa: it’s about SL and other virtual worlds, people’s relationship with their avatar

Kali Pizzaro: no lots of different places I believe – was it 30 people have had a space for the last 3 years and they have been following then

Kali Pizzaro: them

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): the newest trailer?

Kali Pizzaro: Tom and Donna who have done much work in SL –

Sheila Yoshikawa: takes the whole thing seriously so to speak, but as part of a professional and entertaining film

Kali Pizzaro: yes there are many folks who have a disability involved I believe

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): I saw Alice in the pictures–that is why I thought it was VAI

ThinkererSelby Evans (Thinkerer Melville): Learning populations:  Educational communities of the virtual worlds, a database by the Community Virtual Library  https://virtualoutworlding.blogspot.com/2018/04/2018-lib-edu-educational-communities-of.html

Beth Ghostraven: I think Tom Boellstorff’s project was to get disabled people who are in SL to create representations of their reality, as art, on an island that he owns. He’s been working with VAI, but I don’t think it’s specifically about VAI

Kali Pizzaro: http://www.ourdigitalselves.com/ this is the official site and the formal name of the research is Virtual Worlds, Disability, and New Cultures of the Embodied Self, and more informally referred to as Our Digital Selves.

Sheila Yoshikawa: yes I was trying to google for that site!

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): Ethnographia island?

Kali Pizzaro: yes

Beth Ghostraven: Liss, yes

Kali Pizzaro: so happy as I am about to write up my second study that investigated this but would have loved to have been involved in this

Kali Pizzaro: should be really interesting

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): I have been focusing on all the new research on loneliness — that is another great topic for SL

Kali Pizzaro: yes I am thinking of writing a proposal to study that

Beth Ghostraven: oh, I’m not familiar with that, Liss, what’s the research about?

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): The UK created a new Minister for loneliness for ex

Sheila Yoshikawa: lonleiness @Kali?

Kali Pizzaro: yes Sheila

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): the AARP research project focused on it in the US

Kali Pizzaro: Loneliness is the new epidemic

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): it has replaced ebola

Kali Pizzaro: we know from lots of research that being isolated and lonely increases mortality

Sheila Yoshikawa: https://www.aarp.org/research/topics/life/info-2014/loneliness_2010.html

Beth Ghostraven: hahaha I’d much rather be lonely than have ebola!

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): and  reduces functioning

ThinkererSelby Evans (Thinkerer Melville): We can’t be lonely — got too many people to talk to about it.

Sheila Yoshikawa: 😉

Kali Pizzaro: there are many more recent surveys

Marly (Marly Milena): I hope they study the obverse, people like me who spend a majority of time alone but never feel lonely!

Kali Pizzaro: but pretty much similar findings

Kali Pizzaro: ah but their is a difference from being alone and being lonely

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): that is not a problem, Marly

Beth Ghostraven: Marly, yes

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): if you don’t have a problem, you don’t get funding

Marly (Marly Milena): Lots of people feel lonely in partnerships and families!

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): that is the point

ThinkererSelby Evans (Thinkerer Melville): No one in my apartment now — Am I alone?

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): what creates satisfying relationships?

Kali Pizzaro: NO you have a mad Scottish woman and a few other folks heh

Sheila Yoshikawa: there seems to be anxiety about young people who like being alone though, as if everyone’s got to be very social

Kali Pizzaro: hehe

Marly (Marly Milena): It’s an internal state like happiness, not really dependent on external circumstances, although many believe it is

Kali Pizzaro: however, having no connections has been shown to be bad for your health

Sheila Yoshikawa: @Selby, no!

Sheila Yoshikawa: lol Kali

Kali Pizzaro: even one connection is a buffer

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): even bad ones may be better than none, Kali?

Kali Pizzaro: if positive

Kali Pizzaro: yes

Marly (Marly Milena): Only yogis living in caves for years on end have NO connections.

Kali Pizzaro: even bad it relates to a sense of belonging

Kali Pizzaro: anyway

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): yes, some people thrive on bad relationships 🙂

Kali Pizzaro: as it is better than nothing

Sheila Yoshikawa: but you can feel very alone with people who are not on your wavelength at all

Kali Pizzaro: however many connections takes effort

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): my point about SL Sheila

Kali Pizzaro: so there tends to be an amount where we reach satiation but that is individual

Marly (Marly Milena): It would be very hard to live in today’s world with absolutely NO connections.  And, of course, those with virtual connections have a built in way of socializing

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): that’s right Marly

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): the value of virtual connections

Sheila Yoshikawa: I have peeked at next week’s VWER and Camie has a reading for us!

Sheila Yoshikawa: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/avatars-will-soon-upend-the-role-of-teachers-and-transform-education-2017-04-06 ,”We will be reading and discussing “Opinion: Avatars will soon upend the role of teachers and transform education – What software, VR goggles and lots of very good coaches (once called teachers) can do to the classroom”, by Alex Salkever (vice president of marketing communications at Mozilla”

Sheila Yoshikawa: so that is the topic for next week

Wisdomseeker (Lissena): sounds great

Kali Pizzaro: @ Marly exactly hence my point of never using the term real world as it can be interpreted that relationships, meaning and experiences in VWs or other digital platforms are not ‘real’ and have no bearing on behavior etc

ThinkererSelby Evans (Thinkerer Melville): I am meeting with 10 other people talking about things that interest me.  If I went downstairs, there would be 10 people around talking about things I am not interested in. I would be more alone there.

Sheila Yoshikawa: @Selby we are very happy to have you here!

Kali Pizzaro: Exactly Thinkerer

Beth Ghostraven: yes, good point

Marly (Marly Milena): Oh, no! I don’t think anything can substitute for the human interaction that happens between actual teachers and their students

Kali Pizzaro: and importantly Selby you choose to be here; it has not been prescribed by someone


VWER Meeting Transcripts by Virtual Worlds Education Roundtable is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs 3.0 Unported License.

Based on a work at http://vwer.info.


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