April 25, 2019: Open Forum

Transcript of the Virtual Worlds Education Roundtable: April 25, 2019

Topic: Open Forum

Photos by Beth Ghostraven
Transcript edited by Scot Headley


Beth Ghostraven: Hi everyone and welcome to the Virtual Worlds Education Roundtable! This is a public meeting in TEXT chat. We log the chat and publish a transcript of each meeting. VWER has met weekly since 2008, and you can find those transcripts at http://vwer.info , full of information and opinions on many topics re virtual worlds and education. General info about the VWER: We meet every Thursday from 12:00 noon – 1:00 pm SLT (SLT = Second Life Time, same as U.S. Pacific time), and we thank VSTE (the Virginia Society for Technology in Education) for allowing us to meet on their virtual island at VSTE Island (43,50,22). We welcome a wide variety of educators, from seasoned veterans to the newly-rezzed. Check out the Virtual Worlds Education Roundtable group in Second Life, our group on Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/159154226946/ .Follow us on Twitter @VWER, and when you blog or tweet, please remember to include the hashtag #VWER. Today’s meeting is in TEXT chat, so we’re free to ask any questions and make any comments related to virtual worlds and education. Now… we like to begin by introducing ourselves, and if this is your first time here, please say so, so we can take good care of you. You do not have to give out your real-life name or other info if you don’t want to. Everyone can type at once! ready…go!

ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): Selby Evans, blogger, Fort Worth

Developing an interactive storytelling capability in CybaLOUNGE, a roadmap for education

Understanding the Millennial Student: using virtual realities in teaching and learning


Guinivere project: A Language learning game in a 3D immersive environment


Presentation paradigm for the internet generation


MUVE update 4/18/2019 Funding sources for education. Entrepreneurial educators


Beginner’s building in OpenSim: Chimp Versus Chair, Prim Sculptor


Virtual Teacher’s Assistant, an option for entrepreneurial educators: a job for SuperTA


Scot Jung: thank you, Beth, I’m Scot Jung, a professor of educational leadership in Oregon USA

Marly (marly.milena): Niela Miller, M.S.Education/Communications


Founder of Octagon:Creative Exploration in SL.Also co-founder in SL  of Adventures in Lifelong Learning and facilitator for Community of Creative Elders.Combine multi-arts processes with humanistic psychology, coaching and education.

Beth Ghostraven: oh wait, let me find mine

TedWhitecrow: Retired Engineer

Beth Ghostraven: I’m Beth Ghostraven, middle school teacher-librarian in RL and owner of the Book and Tankard Pub in Victoria City, Caledon in SL; owner of Ghostraven Professional Attire, classic clothing for educators in SL (http://bethghostraven.com ); Communications Chair for the VWBPE Conference http://vwbpe.org  ; Communications Chair and Focus Sessions Producer for the ISTE Virtual Environments Network; and unofficial liaison between education groups in SL. For information on events for the educational groups that I work with, see the ISTE VEN Massive Open Online Calendar at http://venetwork.weebly.com/calendar.html; Twitter: @booklady9 I’ll be taking photos to publish with the transcript and recording this session on video; if you have any objection, please IM me.

Marly (marly.milena): Topic? I am finding myself resistant to having to grab on to every new technology, program, etc that comes our way.  What do you think is  ESSENTIAL for educators to include in their toolkits?

Beth Ghostraven: Marly, good question

Beth Ghostraven: CAMIE!!!! Welcome back!

Scot Jung: i like the question as well

Camie Rembrandt: Hi! Thank you!

Scot Jung: context is important

Beth Ghostraven: We just finished intros, if you’d like to do yours

Camie Rembrandt: Sure!

Beth Ghostraven: today is Open Forum, and we’re discussing Marly’s question, “I am finding myself resistant to having to grab on to every new technology, program, etc that comes our way.  What do you think is  ESSENTIAL for educators to include in their toolkits?”

Marly (marly.milena): Hi Sheila, we did intros

Sheila Yoshikawa: Great thank you!

Marly (marly.milena): Plop yours down dear!

Beth Ghostraven: Marly, I think the ability to type would be my #1 tech tool

Marly (marly.milena): (Sheila, this refers to question I put out for a topic…see above)

Beth Ghostraven: Hi Sheila!

Sheila Yoshikawa: I teach and research in the Information School, University of sheffield, and I’ve just been at a physical world conference on information literacy, not able to catch the train I wanted back! Sorry I’m late.

Beth Ghostraven: we’re discussing Marly’s question, “I am finding myself resistant to having to grab on to every new technology, program, etc that comes our way.  What do you think is  ESSENTIAL for educators to include in their toolkits?”

Marly (marly.milena): All is forgiven! LOL

Camie Rembrandt: @Beth for the intros: Independent eLearning professional with a BA in History and a Postgraduate Diploma in Education Endorsed in eLearning Pedagogy from Aberta University (Lisbon, Portugal).

2019-04-25 VWER - Open Forum_002
Camie Rembrandt

Beth Ghostraven: quite all right, Sheila, we’re stumbling along without you :o)

Sheila Yoshikawa: Great to see you again Camie!

Camie Rembrandt: You too, Sheila!

Sheila Yoshikawa: lol @Beth, me who is stumbling

Sheila Yoshikawa: @Marly’s question, for mw it is more feeling comfortable with a range of applications that are suited to different things.

Scot Jung: Google suite of tools for me across most contexts

Sheila Yoshikawa: so e.g. I do find it useful to have applications that enable learners to collaborate on writing documents and producing slides.

Beth Ghostraven: I think basic Google apps, or something similar, are/is essential–word processing, spreadsheet, slides.

Scot Jung: nods

Marly (marly.milena): I am curious about individuals’ experiences with tech tools and what you can no longer live without.  I attended a Zoom conference the other day and found it very useful and easy.

ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): We could have more breadth in the answer to Marly’s question if we had a PLC: Professional learning community.

Sheila Yoshikawa: @Scot yes me too because my uni is an enterprise user of google, so it’s all there – but – am aware of the worrying power of google.

Scot Jung: worrying power? the scope of their power, you mean?

Beth Ghostraven: I think if we want the apps to be collaborative and free, we have to give up something (such as privacy).

Sheila Yoshikawa: well, that it knows so much about me because I use so many manifestations of google

Scot Jung: yes and Beth makes a point

Sheila Yoshikawa: @Beth, yes pragmatically

Scot Jung: the tradeoff

Sheila Yoshikawa: @Selby, what would a PLC look like/do?

ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): Do we have a professional learning community (PLC) in the virtual worlds (MUVEs)? Sort of.  We have a many educational organizations and activities in virtual worlds and some loosely organized communication among them.  But they do not yet form a cohesive community with community plans or community actions. Can we form a stronger professional community?

Marly (marly.milena): So many things are prefaced with the word Google that I get hopelessly confused about which is for what. So I use it as little as possible

Sheila Yoshikawa: I love blogging and have been blogging regularly for about 15 years, so I would be sad without blogger.

Scot Jung: a plc has goals and accountability measures and negotiated procedures and roles

ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_learning_community 

ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): We have several inworld groups that might fit into a PLC

Here are a few that I know:

Rockcliffe University Consortium (RUC)

Virtual Worlds Best Practices in Education (VWBPE)

Virtual Worlds Education Round Table (VWER)

Institute for New Paradigms (in learning) NPI

New Media Arts (NMA)

NonProfit Commons (NPC)

Community Virtual Library (CVL)

International Society for Technology in Education (ISTE)

If these groups increase collaboration, they could make a PLC

Beth Ghostraven: I don’t think a PLC has to be a formal organization

Sheila Yoshikawa: how does it relate to a Community of Practice?

Beth Ghostraven: I thought one’s PLC was the group of individuals with whom one collaborates professionally?

Beth Ghostraven: maybe that’s a PLN?

Scot Jung: any healthy community has trust

ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_of_practice 

Sheila Yoshikawa: bit like community of practice & network of practice?

Scot Jung: and identity

Sheila Yoshikawa: just reading the wikipedia entry, thanks Selby

Scot Jung: maybe a mission or at least shared values

Beth Ghostraven: Darke!!!

Beth Ghostraven: Wow, this is old home week!

Darkejade Tempest (darkejade): Hi folks  🙂

Beth Ghostraven: Welcome back!

ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): Shared communications

Darkejade Tempest (darkejade): thank you 🙂

TedWhitecrow: I think this type of a tool is essential https://www.serolearn.com 

Darkejade Tempest (darkejade): i tried to get back in last week but kept crashing on the teleport

Sheila Yoshikawa: it mentions “Physical proximity” which doesn’t apply here … also seems to assume more of an institutional context? But several of the conditions apply to some of those “communities” you mentioned Selby.

ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): Shares questions, shared answers

Sheila Yoshikawa: perhaps not all of them to any of them though?

Marly (marly.milena): There are subdivisions within groups, even this group, in that we have academics connected to institutions, and adult educators like Liss and me who operate outside a formal structure.

ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): VWER fits well

Scot Jung: tools serve the purpose of the community

Marly (marly.milena): So, some of the topics we discuss are not relevant for me at all and, vice versa,, I’m sure.

Scot Jung: communication, information storage and retrieval, collaboration on design and implementation

ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): But VWER has no system for persistent communication.

Marly (marly.milena): However, since I focus on process tools that can be used in ANY setting, that provides a different context than it does for say,Sheila, who has to operate within the parameters of a university structure

Scot Jung: perhaps without shared  purpose that is not needed

ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): VWER publishes its discussions.  But who reads them?

Sheila Yoshikawa: interesting @TedWhiteCrow I don’t think I’ve come across that tool before – I used to have an assessment that included an assessed mindmap some years ago (the class doesn’t run any more) but it wasn’t about seeing if their ideas matched existing ideas, it was a bit more creative, just mulling over concept maps being used in that way

Scot Jung: but what if someone did a content analysis of the transcripts to identify themes and needs, and then a plan was devised to address a found need? there is a plc.

Sheila Yoshikawa: @Selby I think though that it is almost part of the scope of VWER NOT to have persistent conversation, it has a more limited scope? @Marly though – outside certain countries such as China – there are many google tools that can be used by people of all kinds, they don’t have to be in an institution. @Scot yes that would be feasible.

TedWhitecrow: QDA tools are for analysis of the transcripts e.g Transana

Marly (marly.milena): @Sheila, I wasn’t referring to the Google thing along divisions of types of educators or students.  I am wondering if it has more to do with the way our brains are wired.  I like to be succinct and not have to deal with tons of directives etc (even though I am on Firestorm which has a ton of them but I only use what I actually need)

Beth Ghostraven: Hi Christian!

Scot Jung: commitment is also important

ecoonis – Christian Angel (ecoonis): Hi

Sheila Yoshikawa: Hi Christian!

Darkejade Tempest (darkejade): hi Christian 🙂

ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): Hi Christian

Sheila Yoshikawa: @Christian, we are talking about 2 things: Professional Learning Communities, and

Camie Rembrandt: Hi Christian 🙂

Sheila Yoshikawa: digital tools we couldn’t do without.

Marly (marly.milena): I am the same with organizing info on my computer.  I get rid of emails I don’t want to save, hide posts on FB one I have seen them.  There are others who like to surround themselves with as much info as possible.

Sheila Yoshikawa: @Marly haha yes you should see my office, I am a squirrel, but I do love information.

ecoonis – Christian Angel (ecoonis): An apology for being late but I was with the HP Support. They explained to me about the Nvidia cards and relation with the Intel cards …

Marly (marly.milena): In short, I am the opposite of a hoarder (have you watched those hoarder shows?  Painful!)

ecoonis – Christian Angel (ecoonis): OK, got it @Sheila

ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): https://elearningindustry.com/digital-education-tools-teachers-students 

Sheila Yoshikawa: yes, but I think there is a balance, I also have a problem with the over-minimalist approach

Darkejade Tempest (darkejade): organized mess 🙂

ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): https://elearningindustry.com/tools-for-the-digital-classroom-top-10 

Beth Ghostraven: Christian, that’s ironic, as we’re talking about tech tools :o)

2019-04-25 VWER - Open Forum_004
Darkejade, Thinkerer, and Beth

ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): https://www.nwea.org/blog/2019/75-digital-tools-apps-teachers-use-to-support-classroom-formative-assessment/ 


Beth Ghostraven: Sheila, I think librarians have to have some hoarder tendencies to succeed :o)

ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): https://www.teachthought.com/the-future-of-learning/25-teaching-tools-to-organize-innovate-manage-your-classroom/ 

Marly (marly.milena): Where my messy lots-of-it self shows up is in doing art work.  I collect interesting trash, all sorts of bits, and love transforming it into art!

ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): https://www.teachthought.com/the-future-of-learning/9-digital-learning-tools-every-21st-century-teacher-should-be-able-to-use/ 

Sheila Yoshikawa: I do find it useful to have an application where you can “put all the stuff you made that the students need to find”

Beth Ghostraven: Sheila, does your uni’s LMS do that?

Scot Jung: love the art idea, Marly, after all, affective domain is also needed as well as the cognitive

Marly (marly.milena): uni’s LMS?

Sheila Yoshikawa: before the commercial VLE/LMS I hand coded crude websites

Beth Ghostraven: university’s Learning Management System

Sheila Yoshikawa: Learning Management Sysrtems or Virtual Learning Environment in the UK

Marly (marly.milena): TY

Beth Ghostraven: like Blackboard or Canvas

Beth Ghostraven: sorry Marly

Sheila Yoshikawa: Blackboard, Moodle etc

Scot Jung: Art, music, stories,. all powerful for learning

Marly (marly.milena): I second that, Scot

Scot Jung: and all quite digitalizable

Sheila Yoshikawa: @Beth yes we have Blackboard

Marly (marly.milena): second.

Sheila Yoshikawa: so @Scot creative apps SHOULD be essential?

Scot Jung: or apps that allow us to share creative work

Scot Jung: Spotify for sharing work and cataloging it.

Sheila Yoshikawa: but although many apps SAY they stimulate creativity, many of them are constraining

Sheila Yoshikawa: yes certainly good to have the ones that enable sharing

Scot Jung: as far as stimulating it, i think that is where the vw comes in

Sheila Yoshikawa: indeed

Marly (marly.milena): Teach ’em how to fish…that’s why I am offering training in Symbolic Modeling which anyone can learn in any learning environment

Scot Jung: capacity to build, demo, apply, travel, interact, display, create and share emotions. Is laughing good for learning? How about crying?

ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): Tools for creating and sharing creations, then

Sheila Yoshikawa: one of the questions raised in one of the presentations at the conference I was at was – can you teach dispositions. well it was specifically can librarians teach dispositions?

Scot Jung: yes

ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): or collaborative creation

Scot Jung: you can

Sheila Yoshikawa: And do apps help with that?

Scot Jung: journaling, reflective journaling for helping with disposition development. Google documents work well for journaling and sharing with a mentor or small group

Beth Ghostraven: Scot, I think emotional involvement is essential for learning, but hopefully not too much crying

Scot Jung: Beth, you made me cry, for joy!

Sheila Yoshikawa: lol

Beth Ghostraven: SpeakEasy HUD detaching…

Scot Jung: i shared the story of my students crying while playing the rockville game

Beth Ghostraven: lol Scot

Scot Jung: a powerful moment

Sheila Yoshikawa: yes

Scot Jung: and they learned empathy

Scot Jung: for others

Sheila Yoshikawa: but it is risky to engage with strong emotions

Scot Jung: sure, it is

Beth Ghostraven: yes, especially if class time is limited

Scot Jung: damn the class time, full speed ahead!

Marly (marly.milena): I always recommend that educators who are champions of emotion as part of the learning experience take at least one basic course in coaching or counseling

ecoonis – Christian Angel (ecoonis): In effect @Beth very ironic. By the way today I read a tweet of Philip (https://twitter.com/philiprosedale/status/1121466845129625600 ) I called the attention of using VR (in my opinion a VR, VW, AR without distinction everything would depend on the needs ) as part of an interview. Now with what happened to me a moment ago with HP Support it seems to me that it would have been exciting several of their explanations to have done them through VR, AR, VW (well in my case I will call them together 3D-IDEs (3 Dimensional Immersive Digital Environments) because no means should be exclusive but rather inclusive understanding the problem to be solved through an interaction), so that you can talk about it to the idea (imagine many things) instead of interacting with That idea (which would be a more didactic process) certainly explained to me how the relationship between an Nvidia card and an Intel card worked when they were on the same computer.

Sheila Yoshikawa: “well I’m glad that session gutted you – but time’s up – on to the next teaching period” not a good idea indeed @Beth.

Sheila Yoshikawa: @Marly very sensible

Scot Jung: That is why informal learning is often much more meaningful and powerful; volunteers and less constraints.

Sheila Yoshikawa: @Christian – so they were not using the affordances of a 3D-IDE which could have helped them explain the problem more effectively? Coming back to Professional Learning Communities I suppose they can provide a culture of trust and comfort that enable educators  to discuss and display emotion more when sharing problems etc.?

Scot Jung: i hope so, thanks, Sheila makes a good point, we have tough issues to deal with, who can we trust to share with and learn from?

Beth Ghostraven: I’ve heard it suggested that the education groups in SL could all join together to form something, as the groups keep getting smaller the active members get fewer, that is

Scot Jung: and in some cases the members get smaller,

Sheila Yoshikawa: in my workplace I trust and share with a few people, but certainly not everyone, and then have a wider professional/friend network built up over the years

ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): I am suggesting a collaborative blog.

Marly (marly.milena): Working with feelings is easier when there is an object built by the student or client which represents something important to him/her. Then , both the teacher and the student can focus on the object and get to all its meanings and attached feelings rather than focusing on each other. That’s one reason art is such a powerful tool in learning.

Sheila Yoshikawa: would that tie in with the idea of various SL groups collaborating, Selby? (the blog idea).

Marly (marly.milena): Once again, we are having two conversations at once. LOL

ecoonis – Christian Angel (ecoonis): @sheila, there are two situations, the first is that what I see in the immersive technological medium is that many people marry or fall in love with a virtual environment (it is not the most appropriate when you want to respond to a problem) and the second is that everything it is based on the technological tool (when the device perishes, they believe that the immersive environment died and they already leave it) when we need to understand rather what these environments are and how they help solve general problems of daily life.

Sheila Yoshikawa: @Beth what do YOU think about the idea of closer collaboration?

ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): Yes, Sheila.

Beth Ghostraven: I think on the surface it’s a good idea, but I don’t know that it would work, practically speaking–herding different groups of cats.

ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): The basis of a community is shared communication

Sheila Yoshikawa: hi talkwithmarie, we’re just coming towards the end of our open forum chat

Marly (marly.milena): Hi Red!

Beth Ghostraven: Hi red!

Scot Jung: but not tilting at windmills

Sheila Yoshikawa: there would need to be a specific distinctive need for the blog …. trying to think about that.

ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): Several groups post their chats on their webpages — they could post those also on the community blog.

Marly (marly.milena): Any response to this?[12:50] Marly (marly.milena): Working with feelings is easier when there is an object built by the student or client which represents something important to him/her. Then , both the teacher and the student can focus on the object and get to all its meanings and attached feelings rather than focusing on each other. That’s one reason art is such a powerful tool in learning.

Scot Jung: truth there, Marly

Marly (marly.milena): (Conversation #1 for latecomers)

Sheila Yoshikawa: @Selby so possibly start with reportings to get going.

Scot Jung: Oedipus Rex as a tool for learning and then to ask students to create their story

Marly (marly.milena): Conversation #2 is about forming Professional Network for Educators

Red (talkwithmarie): hi sheila and marly:)

Red (talkwithmarie): hey beth

Beth Ghostraven: Marly, we always seem to have at least 2 conversations swirling around each other :o)

ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): Sheila — that is my idea, start by sharing existing writings in a shared space.

Sheila Yoshikawa: @Scot am just mulling over the learning points from Oedipus Rex 😉

Red (talkwithmarie): inter-related conversations….

ecoonis – Christian Angel (ecoonis): ok continuing my idea of the 3D-IDEs (understanding the essence of the environments) we can move on to the community, and it seems to me that the Google company through the idea of STADIA with respect to space and coexistence, It seems to me to analyze this proposal and take it to a more professional but playful level.

Beth Ghostraven: Red, yes. Christian, what is STADIA?

Sheila Yoshikawa: I just had to Google it too!

Marly (marly.milena): Selby et al—Maybe we can congregate a Professional Networking for Educators group at the next VWBPE conference and see if it can become A THING

ecoonis – Christian Angel (ecoonis): Introducing Stadia from Google: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AffodEEF4ho 

Scot Jung: using the conference as a launch for anything is a good idea, i loved it, it was my first. bravo to those involved !

Sheila Yoshikawa: yes!

Beth Ghostraven: Marly, people have tried that before–I think it makes more sense to use an existing group rather than start something new (yet another group).

Sheila Yoshikawa: OK it is 1pm. time is up for this week. some ideas for the future today. and ideas to consider

ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): Right, Marly — VWBPE is an effort at professional networking

Marly (marly.milena): I liked the panel we did where we got different kinds of educators from different organizations and institutions to share their thing.  We could do something like that again

Beth Ghostraven: I love these Open Forum conversations! So  many interesting ideas!

Sheila Yoshikawa: yes that would be a good idea

Scot Jung: onward and upward

Marly (marly.milena): As I recall, people really enjoyed doing it and the audience really liked it

ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): I will have a blog article soon

Scot Jung: i am on to the next meeting, good day to all

Beth Ghostraven: Marly, that is a good idea

Sheila Yoshikawa: I’m afraid I need to log off now, thank you for the discussion

Beth Ghostraven: me too, see you all next week!

Camie Rembrandt: Me too. Hope to see you next week

ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): bye all

Sheila Yoshikawa: hope to see you next week when we focus on – Fantasy

TedWhitecrow: Thank you

Beth Ghostraven: and if you havne’t been to Fantasy Faire yet, GO! It’s beautiful!

Darkejade Tempest (darkejade): bye all take care .   🙂


VWER Meeting Transcripts by Virtual Worlds Education Roundtable is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs 3.0 Unported License.

Based on a work at http://vwer.info.


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