July 4th, 2019: Open Forum

[2019/07/04 12:05] Sheila Yoshikawa: Hi everyone, and welcome to the Virtual Worlds Education Roundtable. We meet on Thursdays at 12 noon SLT for an hour. 8pm In UK, 3pm EST. VWER is a forum to educate and inform the community about issues that are important and relevant to education in virtual worlds. This is a public meeting, so we will be keeping and publishing a transcript. The transcripts can be found at https://vwer.info/ The VWER continues to develop a community of educators from around the world.
Please join the VWER group here in SL. If you are on Facebook please join our group there http://www.facebook.com/groups/159154226946/
I am moderating today. The topic for this week’s meeting will be: Open Forum
As usual we will be in text chat for the whole session.
[2019/07/04 12:05] Sheila Yoshikawa: Think we can dispense with introductions
[2019/07/04 12:05] Sheila Yoshikawa: what were the topics you had?
[2019/07/04 12:06] Sheila Yoshikawa: I will put the transcript online for this
[2019/07/04 12:06] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): Digital teaching assistant –DTA
[2019/07/04 12:06] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): The DTA-Turing test (Teacher’s Assistant)
The original Turing test was offered as a test of computer thinking.
Could it carry on a conversation without being recognized as a computer?
The challenge for the DTA-Turing test is
Produce a Digital Teacher’s Assistant that can do the job as effectively as a human.
Focus on a single subject and grade level.
Have the DTA function in a MUVE (so available on the internet anywhere.)
Scoring
Teachers of that grade level and subject would emulate students.
They would rate the TA for effectiveness in helping students.
Just the relative effectiveness.
“Consider the best of these as 100% of what is currently available.”
“Don’t consider whether it is good enough to use.”
“Take the worst of these as the zero point.”
“Rate the others in terms of how close they come to the 100% best.”
[2019/07/04 12:07] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): https://virtualoutworlding.blogspot.com/2019/06/2019-vwedu-competitive-sports-for.html
[2019/07/04 12:07] Sheila Yoshikawa: Just reading through
[2019/07/04 12:08] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): More broadly I am developing plans for a DTA.
[2019/07/04 12:08] Sheila Yoshikawa: Hi Marly
[2019/07/04 12:08] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): More articles coming — Hi Marly
[2019/07/04 12:08] Marly (marly.milena): Hi all
[2019/07/04 12:08] Sheila Yoshikawa: We are discussing Selby’s ideas about Digital Teaching Assistants at the moment, after that I know you suggested discussing topics for autumn
[2019/07/04 12:09] Sheila Yoshikawa: Do you think there are viable DTAs out there already, selby?
[2019/07/04 12:09] Sheila Yoshikawa: For Marly – Selby had said “The DTA-Turing test (Teacher’s Assistant)
The original Turing test was offered as a test of computer thinking.
Could it carry on a conversation without being recognized as a computer?
The challenge for the DTA-Turing test is
Produce a Digital Teacher’s Assistant that can do the job as effectively as a human.
Focus on a single subject and grade level.
Have the DTA function in a MUVE (so available on the internet anywhere.)
Scoring
Teachers of that grade level and subject would emulate students.
They would rate the TA for effectiveness in helping students.
Just the relative effectiveness.
“Consider the best of these as 100% of what is currently available.”
“Don’t consider whether it is good enough to use.”
“Take the worst of these as the zero point.”
“Rate the others in terms of how close they come to the 100% best.”
[12:07] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): https://virtualoutworlding.blogspot.com/2019/06/2019-vwedu-competitive-sports-for.html”
[2019/07/04 12:10] Sheila Yoshikawa: So it looks like it is not trying to be “a substitute teacher that can do everything” but identifying specific task areas?
[2019/07/04 12:11] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): There are some aids available — Moodle is LMS —
[2019/07/04 12:11] Sheila Yoshikawa: Hi Stranger
[2019/07/04 12:11] Stranger Nightfire: hello Sheila
[2019/07/04 12:11] Marly (marly.milena): Yes, but does it have a soul and a sense of humor? I think not
[2019/07/04 12:11] Sheila Yoshikawa: We are starting by discussing Selby’s topic of Digital Teaching Assistants
[2019/07/04 12:11] Sheila Yoshikawa: Marly also want to discuss – future sessions of VWER after that
[2019/07/04 12:12] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): I am focusing on what we can do in a virtual world with a DTA.
[2019/07/04 12:12] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): hi stranger
[2019/07/04 12:12] Sheila Yoshikawa: Actually in multicultural sessions (I work a lot – in fact mostly – with international students – you have to be cautious about the sense of humour 😉
[2019/07/04 12:13] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): Spanish Language Learning Island
Situated learning, immersive learning
The best place to learn a language is where you need to use it. There even the little kids can speak it.
[2019/07/04 12:13] Sheila Yoshikawa: yes so I think it’s not – aiming to altogether replace the human, but to have certain areas or tasks taken over by the DTAs?
[2019/07/04 12:14] Sheila Yoshikawa: so things like the bots there that can help you practice simple conversations?
[2019/07/04 12:14] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): replaces text book, not teacher
[2019/07/04 12:15] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): we can already give quizzes and report scores to teacher.
[2019/07/04 12:16] Sheila Yoshikawa: @Marly does that sound less uninteresting to you, thinking of it replacing the text book (rather than human)
[2019/07/04 12:16] Sheila Yoshikawa: actually it’s interesting that I had never thought of our Learning Management System as a DTA
[2019/07/04 12:17] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): Virtual world is interactive textbook
[2019/07/04 12:17] Sheila Yoshikawa: though it does have some simple DTA functions I can see now
[2019/07/04 12:17] Marly (marly.milena): I am a person so I eschew textbooks as much as possible. If the pupil develops a keen interest s/he can always read about it.
[2019/07/04 12:18] Sheila Yoshikawa: I think it depened son the subject too – I don’t use textbooks much, mostly articles, but I think for some subjects like chemstry, physics, maths there is a legitimate need for a “textbook” type source
[2019/07/04 12:18] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): Virtual world can assign tasks and evaluate completion — with time to completion the main measure
[2019/07/04 12:18] Sheila Yoshikawa: souce
[2019/07/04 12:18] Sheila Yoshikawa: SOURCE Sorry I will try to improve
[2019/07/04 12:19] Marly (marly.milena): Huh? Time to completion the main measure????
[2019/07/04 12:19] Sheila Yoshikawa: I was at a conference today in a different city, am rather tired!
[2019/07/04 12:19] Sheila Yoshikawa: so for (again thinking of more hard sciences etc – time solve a maths problem?
[2019/07/04 12:20] Sheila Yoshikawa: but presumably also whether correct or not?
[2019/07/04 12:20] Sheila Yoshikawa: or perhaps that’s taken as given?
[2019/07/04 12:20] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): time to complete the task— which would be designed so it can be done quickly if the learner knows how to do it.
[2019/07/04 12:21] Marly (marly.milena): The most informative math class I had was where the teacher gave us problems, we struggled to figure them out and wrote EVERYTHING in ink so we could see our trajectory and where we veered off. So valuable!
[2019/07/04 12:22] Sheila Yoshikawa: I think most of us learned maths at school before the days of calculators-for-all?
[2019/07/04 12:22] Sheila Yoshikawa: @Selby so are you designing your DTA on a specific platform or world?
[2019/07/04 12:23] Marly (marly.milena): I worry that today;s kids can’t really think their way through a problem. They get formulas, they have watches that don’t show time moving, they can’t work a cash register. Yikes
[2019/07/04 12:23] Stranger Nightfire: we are approaching the time when the “calculators” are going to have AI an be able to do the problem solving
[2019/07/04 12:23] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): Has to be done right but here is a sample: Learning english as Secons Language: Task: “Click on the big red dog by the green car.”
[2019/07/04 12:24] Sheila Yoshikawa: (sorry movong off topic, but can’t resist) but maths anxiety is still a problem in the UK (not actually sure it has got worse, though)
[2019/07/04 12:24] Stranger Nightfire: like you could just tell them an algebra word problem and they would give you the answer
[2019/07/04 12:24] Stranger Nightfire: kind of a scary thought
[2019/07/04 12:24] Marly (marly.milena): I agree, Stranger
[2019/07/04 12:24] Marly (marly.milena): What will happen to brin evolution?
[2019/07/04 12:24] Marly (marly.milena): brain
[2019/07/04 12:25] Sheila Yoshikawa: Thanks for the example @Selby
[2019/07/04 12:25] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): You know all the words, you can do it in a few seconds
[2019/07/04 12:25] Sheila Yoshikawa: I think my students use Google Translate a lot as a DTA
[2019/07/04 12:25] Sheila Yoshikawa: so they would probably run that through Google Translate
[2019/07/04 12:25] Sheila Yoshikawa: but it would indeed take that little bit longer
[2019/07/04 12:25] Marly (marly.milena): Find the dog. Color it red. Find the dot. Color it green. Make up a story with each as characters.
[2019/07/04 12:26] Sheila Yoshikawa: than if you actually understood “red” “green” etc
[2019/07/04 12:26] Marly (marly.milena): Maybe you supply a color chart!
[2019/07/04 12:26] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): But the ESL leanrer will take more time — using Google translate, for example
[2019/07/04 12:27] Sheila Yoshikawa: @Selby does Marly’s storytelling idea fir in with your storytelling work – seems like there could be an overlap there
[2019/07/04 12:27] Sheila Yoshikawa: In the Camelot tour we had from Heike
[2019/07/04 12:27] Sheila Yoshikawa: they do have things along those lines, Marly
[2019/07/04 12:28] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): I have a series of articles about story-telling –some published
[2019/07/04 12:28] Marly (marly.milena): I wonder what the minimum assistance could be in a given task leaving room for maximum discoveries by the student
[2019/07/04 12:29] Sheila Yoshikawa: at the same time making it a task where the DTA could tell whether or not the task had been achieved
[2019/07/04 12:29] Marly (marly.milena): I am against supplying easy answers in any form
[2019/07/04 12:30] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): Marly, required assistance will vary a lot by student
[2019/07/04 12:30] Marly (marly.milena): A DTA might give a set of instructions and be able to tell if the student fulfilled the parameters of the problem, but maybe some creativity could be involved in the approach
[2019/07/04 12:32] Sheila Yoshikawa: on some games you get the choice of how hard you want the game to be, so as you get more confident you can try it again with a higher level of difficulty with more challenge – DTAs could also be like that?
[2019/07/04 12:32] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): Not sure I want DTA to evaluate creativity, but DTA passes responses to teacher and marks things it does not regognize
[2019/07/04 12:32] Marly (marly.milena): Yes, the word games I am addicted to on my iPad are like that. I set it to the hardest level but it is still a medium challenge for me.
[2019/07/04 12:33] Sheila Yoshikawa: @Selby so the human can focus on just the creative aspect, and hopefully thus have more time for that
[2019/07/04 12:33] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): The teacher is not grading routine quizzes so has more time to evaluate unusual responses
[2019/07/04 12:33] Sheila Yoshikawa: @Marly anything involving hand-eye coordination I always have to set it to “easy”
[2019/07/04 12:34] Marly (marly.milena): @Selby–so would these always be partnerships ie DTA working with teacher?
[2019/07/04 12:34] Sheila Yoshikawa: BTW Stranger, did you have any topics or questions you wanted to bring up today?
[2019/07/04 12:35] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): Yes, Marly — and there needs to be a way for teachers to suggest improvememts
[2019/07/04 12:35] Marly (marly.milena): Well, it will be interesting to see how this develops! 🙂
[2019/07/04 12:36] Sheila Yoshikawa: yes I can
[2019/07/04 12:36] Stranger Nightfire: yes
[2019/07/04 12:36] Sheila Yoshikawa: it looks like the declaration of independence
[2019/07/04 12:36] Sheila Yoshikawa: Great
[2019/07/04 12:36] Stranger Nightfire: it is the constitution
[2019/07/04 12:36] Sheila Yoshikawa: I will keep some notes in text
[2019/07/04 12:36] Sheila Yoshikawa: for the record
[2019/07/04 12:37] Sheila Yoshikawa: so Marly’s suggesting skills workshops
[2019/07/04 12:37] Sheila Yoshikawa: another is looking athe multiple intelligences model on inspiration island
[2019/07/04 12:37] Sheila Yoshikawa: and working through reflections and exercises on that
[2019/07/04 12:38] Sheila Yoshikawa: 😉
[2019/07/04 12:38] Sheila Yoshikawa: go ahead
[2019/07/04 12:38] Sheila Yoshikawa: “What it means to bring heart to teaching”
[2019/07/04 12:38] Sheila Yoshikawa: bringing love vs. subject matter
[2019/07/04 12:38] Sheila Yoshikawa: “What are the advantages/disadvantages of having mixed ages learning together”
[2019/07/04 12:39] Sheila Yoshikawa: Those are Marly’s suggestions
[2019/07/04 12:39] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): Mixed ages– the old one-room school house
[2019/07/04 12:39] Sheila Yoshikawa: and for skills – it’s trading skills – bringing different skills
[2019/07/04 12:40] Stranger Nightfire: sounds great
[2019/07/04 12:40] Sheila Yoshikawa: intergenerational learning
[2019/07/04 12:41] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): intergenerational learning https://www.google.com/search?q=intergenerational+learning&rlz=1C1CHZL_enUS748US748&oq=intergenerational+learning&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.663j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
[2019/07/04 12:41] Sheila Yoshikawa: sorry you are breaking up Marly
[2019/07/04 12:42] Stranger Nightfire: voice cutting out
[2019/07/04 12:42] Sheila Yoshikawa: I thonk you’re saying we considered this before and didn’t do it?
[2019/07/04 12:42] Sheila Yoshikawa: yes that’s better
[2019/07/04 12:42] Sheila Yoshikawa: that was partly because I have been doing most of the programming
[2019/07/04 12:42] Sheila Yoshikawa: whilst Camie was away for technical reasons
[2019/07/04 12:43] Sheila Yoshikawa: and kali taking a bit of time out
[2019/07/04 12:43] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): I am working on skilled use of Google search — THe DTA will coach on that
[2019/07/04 12:43] Sheila Yoshikawa: and I am a human lol
[2019/07/04 12:43] Sheila Yoshikawa: but yes
[2019/07/04 12:43] Sheila Yoshikawa: if that sounds ok – say every month
[2019/07/04 12:43] Sheila Yoshikawa: one open forum
[2019/07/04 12:43] Sheila Yoshikawa: one skills session
[2019/07/04 12:43] Stranger Nightfire: Google search is getting more difficult the algorithms are slanted these days
[2019/07/04 12:43] Sheila Yoshikawa: also Camie suggested in that last session she was at
[2019/07/04 12:43] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): Selby is better
[2019/07/04 12:44] Sheila Yoshikawa: that some simple sessions on building skills
[2019/07/04 12:44] Sheila Yoshikawa: might be useful
[2019/07/04 12:44] Sheila Yoshikawa: so those could be among the skills sessions
[2019/07/04 12:44] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): SL did not let me use my real name back then
[2019/07/04 12:45] Sheila Yoshikawa: and that would also be better in terms of not having to find so many discussion topics 😉
[2019/07/04 12:45] Sheila Yoshikawa: also in Autumn I think we will have the vwmooc
[2019/07/04 12:45] Sheila Yoshikawa: yes
[2019/07/04 12:45] Sheila Yoshikawa: I am always open to ideas lol
[2019/07/04 12:46] Sheila Yoshikawa: otherwise you just get mine ;-))
[2019/07/04 12:47] Sheila Yoshikawa: I think myself a key thing is getting ideas from different people so there’s some diversity
[2019/07/04 12:47] Sheila Yoshikawa: Marly having another ideas – educating people about political structures etc.
[2019/07/04 12:48] Sheila Yoshikawa: I would say that @Marly that overlaps with Val’s ideas on digital citizenship but it’s not exactly the same
[2019/07/04 12:48] Sheila Yoshikawa: actually a panel session on that area
[2019/07/04 12:48] Sheila Yoshikawa: might be interesting
[2019/07/04 12:48] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): Practice on recognizing fake news
[2019/07/04 12:48] Sheila Yoshikawa: @Marly’s mentioning decision making and informed citizen
[2019/07/04 12:49] Sheila Yoshikawa: and I would say it is not all about young people
[2019/07/04 12:49] Sheila Yoshikawa: I was at the conference of our professional library and information association
[2019/07/04 12:49] Sheila Yoshikawa: one delegate gave the example of her 26 year old daughter
[2019/07/04 12:49] Stranger Nightfire: they need to learn to exclude souces that have lied to them
[2019/07/04 12:50] Sheila Yoshikawa: and how the delegate was frustrated about her (university educated, manger role) daughter was in her bubble of social media
[2019/07/04 12:50] Sheila Yoshikawa: and how it was MORE difficult to influence her adult daughter
[2019/07/04 12:50] Stranger Nightfire: like did that news station tell me there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq
[2019/07/04 12:50] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): Schlarly articles on intergenerational learning https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHZL_enUS748US748&ei=NVYeXaqpHs-PtAbq_5uQAg&q=Schlarly+articles+on+intergenerational+learning&oq=Schlarly+articles+on+intergenerational+learning&gs_l=psy-ab.3…551389.567588..567876…0.0..0.112.1928.17j4……0….1..gws-wiz…….0i71j0i13j0i7i30j35i304i39j0i8i7i30j0i8i13i30.GsGuEgxhfsU
[2019/07/04 12:50] Sheila Yoshikawa: indeed
[2019/07/04 12:52] Stranger Nightfire: BBC and Guardian have both lied to me
[2019/07/04 12:53] Sheila Yoshikawa: the bbc has become more clickbait
[2019/07/04 12:53] Sheila Yoshikawa: looking at its top stories
[2019/07/04 12:53] Sheila Yoshikawa: they aren’t always news
[2019/07/04 12:53] Stranger Nightfire: will for instance try to tell people that Jeremy Corbin is an antisemite
[2019/07/04 12:53] Marly (marly.milena): Snopes to check out facts
[2019/07/04 12:53] Sheila Yoshikawa: but it is better than some dreadful uk newspapers/news sites
[2019/07/04 12:53] Sheila Yoshikawa: like the daily Mail and the Daily Telegraph
[2019/07/04 12:53] Stranger Nightfire: I no longer trust Snopes or Politifact or any of those
[2019/07/04 12:53] Marly (marly.milena): Haha, this topic is irresistible
[2019/07/04 12:54] Marly (marly.milena): @Stranger, what are your trusted sources?
[2019/07/04 12:54] Sheila Yoshikawa: ah well that is a saga really, the labour party and whether or not it is antisemitic, or to what extent
[2019/07/04 12:54] Stranger Nightfire: not sure i have time to dig into that can of worms right now
[2019/07/04 12:54] Stranger Nightfire: it is not easy to find them
[2019/07/04 12:54] Marly (marly.milena): Right you are!
[2019/07/04 12:54] Sheila Yoshikawa: my most trusted source may be something called “Private Eye”
[2019/07/04 12:55] Sheila Yoshikawa: which is part satirical magazine, part investigative journalism
[2019/07/04 12:55] Stranger Nightfire: mostly they are independent bloggers and such who over time i have found to be reliable
[2019/07/04 12:55] Sheila Yoshikawa: its circulation in print form has increased notably in the past few years
[2019/07/04 12:55] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): I want to see news from multiple sources
[2019/07/04 12:55] Sheila Yoshikawa: yes
[2019/07/04 12:56] Sheila Yoshikawa: https://www.private-eye.co.uk/
[2019/07/04 12:56] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): I can easily do that on the web
[2019/07/04 12:56] Sheila Yoshikawa: OK just a few minutes left
[2019/07/04 12:56] Sheila Yoshikawa: Selby
[2019/07/04 12:56] Sheila Yoshikawa: you are leading next week
[2019/07/04 12:57] Sheila Yoshikawa: (I am in Australia for a couple of weeks)
[2019/07/04 12:57] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): right — more about DTA
[2019/07/04 12:57] Sheila Yoshikawa: I think you have a topic for next week?
[2019/07/04 12:57] Sheila Yoshikawa: great!
[2019/07/04 12:57] ThinkererSelby Evans (thinkerer.melville): I have article coming out
[2019/07/04 12:57] Sheila Yoshikawa: whispers: 😉
[2019/07/04 12:57] Sheila Yoshikawa: I don’t know why that whispered
[2019/07/04 12:58] Stranger Nightfire: we are close enough to whisper
[2019/07/04 12:58] Sheila Yoshikawa: So a small gathering this week, but of excellent quality