2008 March 4 – What do we say to, and how do we deal with, skeptics

SL Education Roundtable – Montclair State CHSS Island
Tuesday, March 4th, 2008
“What do we say to, and how do we deal with, skeptics”
[Special Thanks to Zotarah Shepherd for providing these notes]
Parts of this transcript have been edited for readability.

AJ Brooks: why don’t we start by introducing ourselves. No need to wait – type away, you can catch up in history to see what everyone said
Graham Mills: Graham Mills, Liverpool, UK
MLani Montgomery: My name is M’Lani, and I am an assistant superintendent at an education service agency in the US that has a distance-learning program.
Claire Nostram: Claire Montclair State U
AJ Brooks: I’m AJ Brooks, AJ Kelton in RL – I work for the College of Humanities and Social Sciences at Montclair State University in New Jersey. This is our Island, which we’ve had since April of last year
Juice Gyoza: University Wisc Milwaukee – Communication dept and Learning Tech Center
AJ Brooks: oh – and don’t worry about typos – we all speak Typoense fluently πŸ™‚
Sloan Skjellerup: lol
Ilike Fall: Marlyn Tadros – teaching Internet and computers and design etc at New England Institute of Art in Boston
Franchella Milena: Pat Facciponti (Franchella Milena) Lafayette College Instructional Technologist
AJ Brooks: I see a bit more typing, AJ Brooks: anyone else?
Ozma Malibu: Sandy Andrews, Arizona State, on the phone though –
Zotarah Shepherd Hi I am a grad student in northern California at Sonoma State University. I teach – volunteer- on the teen grid and SL. I am trying to get SSU to allow me to teach a class in SL for credential students.
AJ Brooks: I thought we’d start off today by talking about how to deal with skeptics. Anyone have any experience with this?
MLani Montgomery: Oh yes.
Ilike Fall: oh plenty of course, my school isn’t there yet
Graham Mills: Hard to say
Ilike Fall: nor are they remotely there
Zotarah Shepherd I teach life-skills and self-esteem usually as a guest speaker at high schools and missle schools in RL.
MLani Montgomery: What is a missle school?
AJ Brooks: where is the push back?
MLani Montgomery: Oh, middle, sorry.
Gobiyaya Wozniak: hello I work with a k-8 school in California — we are thinking of getting and island or working with others doing the same.
AJ Brooks: what is the usual “line” you get
Zotarah Shepherd yes Middle school sorry
MLani Montgomery: They say it’s not the same nor as valuable as face-to-face.
Ilike Fall: the usual line is ‘let’s get a first life first’ – rolling eyes
AJ Brooks: lol
Sloan Skjellerup: Hi Phelan!
Phelan Corrimal: good day
Juice Gyoza: I always wonder why we compare technology to f2f — like f2f is always that great
AJ Brooks: well – that seems to be a natural comparison, no?
Juice Gyoza: yes — but why? Still is it?
Ilike Fall: and, also, why watch a web cast of a conference in SL and not as a regular web cast on the web [as an example]
MLani Montgomery: Even when you present the research that talks about creating your persona, the value of the anonymity to allow one to explore and take risks, and the 3D aspect, they still say it’s not worth the effort.
Juice Gyoza: the decades of cmc research have shown that they are different mediums — different benefits and challenges
Ozma Malibu: Juice: Applied Learning Technologies Institute and College of Ed. [still on phone, sorry]
AJ Brooks: ok – so effort is a major stumbling block
Zotarah Shepherd I just read the report about environmental impact of SL. Fascinating, but missed the alternative of driving or flying distances.
AJ Brooks: credibility, what else?
Phelan Corrimal: an avatar should not be confused with the person behind it because they are not the same
AJ Brooks: well – there are some who might not completely agree with that
MLani Montgomery: Validity of the learning experience.
Juice Gyoza: No problem Ozma — did my doctorate work in Comm dept
Ilike Fall: my students hate the idea. They think I have gone crazy
AJ Brooks: what age group, Ilike?
Ilike Fall: 18-25
Graham Mills: I am taking a very incrementalist approach
AJ Brooks: ok, my students LOVE SL. I’m teaching writing
Zotarah Shepherd I was pleasantly surprised that SSU IT department said OK to downloading SL for a class. And has already done that for a communications course.
Phelan Corrimal: An avatar is an expression of the persona that a person may like to be rather than who or what a person is – similar to how people often fragment their RL social circles and behave in one fashion with one group while completely different with another
AJ Brooks: fresh comp
Ilike Fall: can we mix them?
Sloan Skjellerup: hmm, my avatar is me … just less 20 years …lol
AJ Brooks: I’m not sure I make a huge distinction between AJ Brooks and AJ Kelton
Phelan Corrimal: lol
AJ Brooks: lol – yes, except physically appearance. I don’t act differently
Ilike Fall: yup.. me too
AJ Brooks: now – with my Alt, that is a different story
Zotarah Shepherd Schools do not really need to buy an island to start teaching in SL. There are so many places for teaching now.
AJ Brooks: I have an Alt that owns an art gallery, and people who know me in RL say I am different
Ilike Fall: lol
AJ Brooks: good point, Zotarah
Phelan Corrimal: Well keep in mind that in here – everyone is ‘beautiful people’ – there is no race no colour no deformities no accents
AJ Brooks: there are many resources. Thats not true either, Phelan
Ilike Fall: I am more or less the same, but in SL I can be younger and dress like a nutcase. Nobody cares
AJ Brooks: I know people who choose to be avatars of color, or handicapped
Franchella Milena: I’m pretty much a newbie, but I am intrigued by the possibilities. I used to do a lot of multipoint videoconferencing with classes.
Juice Gyoza: we may all come across differently – it is the medium…Walther talks about hyper personal communication — that we are more desirable in a lean medium
MLani Montgomery: What do you mean there are no race, colour, deformities, accents? I see people choosing to be in wheelchairs and with deformities. I see races. I hear accents.
AJ Brooks nods
Ilike Fall: true.. but that is so by choice., They choose to do that.
AJ Brooks: yes
Zotarah Shepherd I have seen many AVs who choose to be in a wheel chair or alternative appearance.
AJ Brooks: very true
Phelan Corrimal: but not in text chat — in text chat you simply have the words on the screen – people either choose to make those aspects of themselves known or not
Juice Gyoza: you can project a chosen identity
Franchella Milena: This type of gathering, I think, offers the additional options of exploring terrain, joint projects, interaction, and a certain amount of anonymity when you wish it.
Ilike Fall: yet I know one woman who is actually handicapped in a wheelchair and she loves SL she said because she can be ‘normal’ and can even fly
MLani Montgomery: Even if you don’t have voice, you can spot the linguistic characteristics of a second language learner in type.
Phelan Corrimal: exactly
AJ Brooks nods
Phelan Corrimal: take off, eh?!
Juice Gyoza: I think our words in chat can say different things about us then our words in f2f
AJ Brooks: oh yes, as a rhetorician, I could not agree more
Zotarah Shepherd Even though we have Voice in SL now, I rarely see it used.
MLani Montgomery: There is an organization in Brazil using SL to reacclimate children who have been abused into “normal” social interaction.
AJ Brooks: really? Do you have the name of that org?
MLani Montgomery: There is a group in the UK helping people coming out of comas to learn to socialize again through SL.
Phelan Corrimal: I think that is one of the benefits of this environment — people are more accepting of differences in here
Ilike Fall: “linguistic characteristics of a second language learner in type.” hmm.. so can you tell who here is not an English-as-first-language person?
AJ Brooks: there is DEFINITELY a written voice
MLani Montgomery: I have it in my research notebooks. I can look it up for you. I’ve gathered a lot of information on the therapeutic uses of SL because I want to target special needs students in SL.
Franchella Milena: It’s a lot more personal than a web cast. You’re not just watching and listening. You have a personal involvement in your avatar.
Juice Gyoza: I have disclosed more about my ideas and opinions in Sl than I ever would in a f2f meeting
AJ Brooks: there are def. traces of people who are ESL in their writing that doesn’t mean they exhibit them when they write
Zotarah Shepherd Wow great MLani
AJ Brooks: so, with all this enthusiasm, why can’t we get through to the skeptics? Why do they NOT want to believe so much?
Juice Gyoza: Mlani – I have a college that is going to use SL for her Occupational Therapy class – I should connect you two
AJ Brooks: what is their vested interest in proving us wrong?
Ilike Fall: because they think it’s a fad
AJ Brooks: is it?
MLani Montgomery: I believe those who are most vocal in their skepticism have not had positive experiences in gaming or computers in general.
Phelan Corrimal: skeptics are mainstream adopters – not early adopters — they will come around in due time once the technology has proven itself
Juice Gyoza: a colleague not college — lol
Graham Mills: They’ve spent a lot of money on bricks and mortar?
Ilike Fall: maybe it is
AJ Brooks: I see SL as the “AOL” of virtual worlds
Zotarah Shepherd Sometimes it is hard to tell since so many educated people type in ungrammatical ways, like not using Capitals or punctuation – me included.
Ilike Fall: someone was talking about the killer app on the list, right?
Juice Gyoza: I have to say though we can’t discount the skeptics
AJ Brooks: it will be around, although not always the king of the hill
Ilike Fall: or did I read that somewhere else?
Juice Gyoza: I would like to see more documented evidence on the impact on learning
AJ Brooks: skeptics are GREAT. We NEED the skeptics
Zotarah Shepherd Me too Juice
AJ Brooks: they keep us sharp
Phelan Corrimal: the skeptics are right on one point – there is no benefit to this environment in ALL cases
MLani Montgomery: Most of the skeptics I deal with are having a hard enough time going from Web 1.0 to 2.0, let alone this Web 3.0 environment. They can’t handle the paradigm shift.
Ilike Fall: I think until we get that killer app… lol true
Juice Gyoza: I teach computer-mediated communication – communication tech, so I understand the potential — but I want to see the evidence
AJ Brooks: virtual environments are a tool
Zotarah Shepherd There is so much bad press about SL, that people tend to overlook the good.
AJ Brooks: well – people have to write it up
Phelan Corrimal: there seems to be two camps in SL — the “Oh my god – drop everything and work from SL” camp and the “you people are nuts” camp
Juice Gyoza: I have been using virtual worlds for a decade, but…there still needs to be more supporting evidence
AJ Brooks nods
Juice Gyoza: that documents SL’s ability to meet certain pedagogical goals better than other technologies
AJ Brooks: full time tenured faculty need to publish
Phelan Corrimal: very few seem to be middle of the road using technology in the right measure for the right reasons and purpose
Graham Mills: Is it the Hawthorne effect you have to discount, the novelty value?
Chimera Cosmos: sorry to be late- hi all
Zotarah Shepherd Right. I compare SL to a city where there are a variety of places a university as well as a red light district.
AJ Brooks: welcome
MLani Montgomery: Every learning system should have multiple delivery platforms for optimal contact and to address all learning styles. It should be one of the platforms when it makes sense to be in this environment. If the class has any kind of social aspect to it at all, SL could be used for that if they are at a distance or have any constraints about time or home commitments.
AJ Brooks: join us
Phelan Corrimal: Hi chimera
Patrice Llewellyn: Hi, my apologies as well.
Zotarah Shepherd I think parents are the ones we need to educate
Ilike Fall: sloan. I am so distracted by you LOL
AJ Brooks: I did not give my students a choice about using it. I wrote it into the curriculum, told them from the start, and there has been little to no push back
Juice Gyoza: me too
AJ Brooks: its hybrid
Phelan Corrimal: I don’t necessarily think so — the standard marketing life cycle suggests that we are still at a very early stage of adoption
AJ Brooks: we meet 50% on campus and the rest in SL,
Juice Gyoza: nice blended design
AJ Brooks: we’ve not even seen the tip of the iceberg,
Juice Gyoza: true
Phelan Corrimal: information communication technology convergence is still happening in this environment and until we see a more or less full convergence I think this platform will still be on the fringes of mainstream adoption
AJ Brooks: full convergence?
Phelan Corrimal: Educators are certainly leading the way in this regard however
Ilike Fall: ok sometimes I just think that some of ‘us’ here are a bit over the top in advocating for SL. We do sound a bit insane to the RL.
AJ Brooks: what tool has full convergence?
Zotarah Shepherd For a project last semester I gathered together website resources to use in a proposal to adopt SL as a learning platform.
Phelan Corrimal: for example – A standard application would be to share your desktop in this environment. Phelan Corrimal: We can’t do that today and yet it is a standard tool of webinars
Zotarah Shepherd hahaha Ilike
AJ Brooks: but webinars are limited in other ways
Ilike Fall: πŸ™‚
Phelan Corrimal: You can’t do file sharing in here
AJ Brooks: and yet they are full convergence?
MLani Montgomery: But SL doesn’t have to be a one-stop shop for ALL applications. Can’t you have the webinar up while also be in SL?
Phelan Corrimal: you can’t get web pages in here easily
MLani Montgomery: Multiple platforms are needed.
AJ Brooks nods heartily, you will be able to soon. May I think. html on a prim is just around the corner
Phelan Corrimal: I think if this is going where it needs to you should be able to do everything you can using web 2.0 technologies in SL
Zotarah Shepherd I like the adaptability of SL. You can bring so many things into it.
AJ Brooks: but WHY?
Chimera Cosmos: got to change computers — back in a minute
Ilike Fall: without knowing how to code though
AJ Brooks: why does it need to be everything?
Ilike Fall: because if it will depend on coding, then we are alienating a lot of people
Phelan Corrimal: That corner is a very big corner — they’ve been talking about it since before I signed up to SL
AJ Brooks: no – there is a date on it now, I think it was May, but I don’t’ remember
Phelan Corrimal: Feb 29, 2009
MLani Montgomery: I don’t think it needs to be or do everything. I don’t think all kids will be proficient in this. I think students will respond differently to different platforms, so you should use many.
AJ Brooks: agreed, arrows in a quiver
Phelan Corrimal: I think there are some standard things this environment needs to do to really become a competitive collaborative platform
Zotarah Shepherd It is hard enough to get teachers to use any technology in the classroom.
AJ Brooks: when I am holding class – we operating in Word, Blackboard and SL
Phelan Corrimal: web on a prim; desktop sharing; webcams; and file sharing are all part of that. things that are incredibly important for business to really get effective use out of the platform
AJ Brooks: well – what business needs and what education needs are very different and the approaches are different too
Graham Mills: Just try to imagine what it will be like in 10 years time
AJ Brooks: imagine in 1 year, thin back a year ago, how many of you were in world last year today?. I was
Graham Mills: I wasn’t here, lol
MLani Montgomery: I want to be sure that as many people as can take advantage are getting into it as they can, baby steps, so it does not overwhelm them.
Phelan Corrimal: Sort of — I’m coming from the business education side of things not k-12 so have a bit of a different outlook as there are different requirements for MBA programs
Graham Mills: I agree Mlani
AJ Brooks: seriously – lets take a poll. AJ Brooks: how many people were in SL last year on March 4th
Phelan Corrimal: I can rez one πŸ™‚
AJ Brooks raises hand
Sloan Skjellerup: Me
MLani Montgomery: I don’t want this to be a place where only the gamers and web heads go. I want it to be as user friendly as possible.
Phelan Corrimal: yep
MLani Montgomery: me
Juice Gyoza: I had na avatar — wasn’t in
Eliza Vanalten: me
Phelan Corrimal: well maybe on the 2nd — I don’t know about the 4th per se πŸ™‚
Graham Mills: Not seriously
Patrice Llewellyn: I wasn’t in
AJ Brooks: lol
Claire Nostram: I’m new
AJ Brooks: ok – so only a small handful. a year ago there weren’t even 1/2 a millio rsidents. AJ Brooks: and now there are over 12million
Franchella Milena: I am also new but making up time with intensity! : )
Sloan Skjellerup: I saw the potential immediately
AJ Brooks: give or take some alts
Sloan Skjellerup: lol Franchella
Zotarah Shepherd There are many classes in Basics of SL and some intermediate but not much on how to teach in a classroom. Then we can do machinimas of the advantage of SL in a classroom. Until then we will just have the lecture format and teachers will wonder “Why use that?”
Phelan Corrimal: hmmmm yes there was — when I joined in Jun 06 there were 4M accounts (realizing that residents are different of course)
Ozma Malibu: I was in this time last year
Phelan Corrimal: experiential learning
Ozma Malibu: ok, off the phone and caught up
Sloan Skjellerup: wb Ozma
AJ Brooks: there were not 4m in june 06, not in SL
MLani Montgomery: Experiential learning and discovery approaches are out there. Just not infused with technology. It’s not as big a leap as it sounds.
AJ Brooks: check out the metrics
Phelan Corrimal: the difference is one of tacit verse explicit mechanisms of education and knowledge transferance
Zotarah Shepherd We need immersive constructionist builds and techniques employed in SL teaching.
Juice Gyoza: The ability to learn through dialgue is verey possible…experiential learning is possible in some disciplines
MLani Montgomery: If the builds and examples of the student activities are there, the teachers will begin to see themselves as the proverbial guid on the side rather than the sage on the stage.
Juice Gyoza: My colleagues in the health sciences are finding some limitations
AJ Brooks: there are still limitations, lol, and imitations too
Zotarah Shepherd Good Mlani
Juice Gyoza: ha
MLani Montgomery: That is why one platform will never be fully sufficient.
Phelan Corrimal: the idea of play, role play, and experimentation are very applicable I think to any level of education and this is a good environment for that
Zotarah Shepherd Yes Phelan
Juice Gyoza: yes — role playing potential is great
AJ Brooks: so how do we bring this from the game board to the board of trustees
MLani Montgomery: I visited a health sciences double sim where they had disaster preparedness and mass casualty triage trainings going on. Amazing stuff.
Zotarah Shepherd Machinima
AJ Brooks: play2train is amazing also
Phelan Corrimal: we have a courtroom set-up for example — we can reinact many differen types of scenarios with people from 12 different countries at the drop of a hat — you can’t necessarily do that in RL
Juice Gyoza: the limitation is in the ability to do more fine motor things in sl
MLani Montgomery: Part of dealing with skeptics is helping them see this as ONE tool or platform in a big bag of platforms.
AJ Brooks nods, yes, back to the many arrows idea
Ilike Fall: LOL.. ok do we have three people sitting on the same chair? or am I seeing things?
Sloan Skjellerup: hehe
Phelan Corrimal: but that will come as the platform continues to improve — consider the fact that just 20 years ago PONG was state of the art in video gaming
Zotarah Shepherd There will alsobe a UN for students on the teen grid.
AJ Brooks: we’re a friendly group
Eliza Vanalten: lol ilike
Sloan Skjellerup: not as bad as getting cought with your Emote on
Ilike Fall: LOLLLLL
Juice Gyoza: I have no problem meeting pedagogical needs, but my colleagues do…yes — several people are on my lap
AJ Brooks: i can make the table bigger
Zotarah Shepherd NASA is teaching here and the TG too.
MLani Montgomery: Juice is popular today. MLani Montgomery: That chair is stuck
AJ Brooks: hmmm – thats yucky
MLani Montgomery: Are we on a sim line or something?
AJ Brooks: yes
MLani Montgomery: ahhh, bingo
AJ Brooks: perhaps that is the problem
MLani Montgomery: It is
Ilike Fall: sloan, I think we’re stuck together
MLani Montgomery: The script is confused by the sim line
AJ Brooks: let me move the table over a bit
MLani Montgomery: hang on!
Phelan Corrimal: hanging
MLani Montgomery: lol
Eliza Vanalten: holding tight to my chair!!
Zotarah Shepherd It is interesting how the physical appearance affects us, even though we can still type. The same happens with our students. There is a suspension of disbelief
AJ Brooks: sorry gang
Ilike Fall: LOL
Sloan Skjellerup: cool, E ticket Ride!
Ilike Fall: no don’t be sorry that is so cool
AJ Brooks: guess I know for next time not to have the table over so far
Chimera Cosmos: wooo
Phelan Corrimal: back on the side lines again — sheesh!
Chimera Cosmos: motion
Sloan Skjellerup: Faster, do it again! woo hoo
AJ Brooks: if you’re on the outside you may want to stand and take a new seat. Lol. yeee-haaaaaa
Franchella Milena: Thanks for the conversation. Duty calls. Must go!
AJ Brooks: bye
MLani Montgomery: Bye then
AJ Brooks: we’ll be back here next week, Franchella
Zotarah Shepherd This is a playground of the mind, a media for social interaction and creativity.
AJ Brooks: it is all that, and more than that, the learning is deeper, in some instance
Zotarah Shepherd Yes more
MLani Montgomery: It’s also a place to demonstrate the use of knowledge, which isn’t always possible to this extent in rl
AJ Brooks nods
Ilike Fall: I got ejected into la la land
Zotarah Shepherd We just have to prove that AJ
Ilike Fall: 😦
AJ Brooks: well – how do we do that?
Phelan Corrimal: It really I think depends on the application — photography for example in this environment SL is perfect for teaching
AJ Brooks: I only have two letters after my name, not three – so the establishment doesn’t listen to me
MLani Montgomery: I’ve often wondered about having a group of avatars which are “demo” avs to bring people in to experiment. Set them up ahead of time, let them log in instead of going through the registration process, have them already at a given location, and then start a big of an orientation.
Ilike Fall: phew. Safe
Zotarah Shepherd We see what is working and make a machinima of it and compile those to show to our administrators.
Phelan Corrimal: you can adjust lighting camera angles, design, form, line, function, any number of variables relatively quickly
Zotarah Shepherd Does everyone know what machinima is?
Ilike Fall: yup
Eliza Vanalten: yes
Chimera Cosmos: the banding together of groups in here is really good, better than in RL
AJ Brooks: NMC’s orientation island is much better, as is their ASP sign up
MLani Montgomery: Mahinima is movie making in SL.
Phelan Corrimal: That is something we are thinkging of playing with as well
Chimera Cosmos: yes, like at NMC
AJ Brooks: not just SL
Juice Gyoza: that is good advice for students too
AJ Brooks: its avatar based movies
Juice Gyoza: have them go into sl together so they can use each other as a resource
MLani Montgomery: If YOuTube would just have more examples of good education with their machinima projects instead of all the hype
Zotarah Shepherd NMC has provided the best of what SL has to offer in education, that I have seen so far.
AJ Brooks: agreed
Phelan Corrimal: it reduces set-up time because you are pre-set the AV for the specific class as part of the set-up
Eliza Vanalten: as annoying as Orientation Island is, it’s worth taking the time to do….. the problem is, most people don’t want to invest that time, and they give up
AJ Brooks: i’m working with NMC on the Student Center project
MLani Montgomery: Cool, AJ
Juice Gyoza: great
Juice Gyoza: when will teh student cetner be done
AJ Brooks: SL’s Orientation Island is very difficult
Phelan Corrimal: students have everything they need from the get go rather than having to sort away inventory up front
AJ Brooks: I couldn’t get through it, and I built this island – lol
Juice Gyoza: when will teh student center be done
Eliza Vanalten: lol
Chimera Cosmos: the trick is to figure out the most painless way to get people in,of course
AJ Brooks: we’re in the planning phases now
Chimera Cosmos: but that’s true of all use of technology
Zotarah Shepherd Admins and teachers and parents will not take the time to read a bunch of reports, until they see what SL can be. We can show them with machinimas.
Phelan Corrimal: blunt hit to the back of the head and then drag them in πŸ™‚
Eliza Vanalten: i just sat with a group of people who had never been in…. it was quite the experience
MLani Montgomery: But if you bring in someone to an avatar that doesn’t look like a cartoon and has clothing and toys and such, then the introduction is much more productive. I bring them in as one of my alts just to let them see the possibilities.
Zotarah Shepherd Then we walk them through SL and let them try it.
Phelan Corrimal: well at least people don’t show up naked anymore
AJ Brooks: lol
MLani Montgomery: lol
Eliza Vanalten: lol
MLani Montgomery: Did they ever come in naked?
Eliza Vanalten: yes!
AJ Brooks: i did
Phelan Corrimal: oh ya
Eliza Vanalten: we had one just the other day
MLani Montgomery: That’s just WRONG! lol
Eliza Vanalten: it was “blurry” naked…
Phelan Corrimal: hehe— up until about last summer I think
AJ Brooks: birthday suit
Eliza Vanalten: but still naked
Zotarah Shepherd Wellll not quite true. There are still griefers and new people who do not get it.
Ilike Fall: the entire initial process of registration sucks. Whenever i ‘recruit’ someone new and make them sign up they get stuck at the initiation island [ok ok orientation island] and then hate it and never go back
Chimera Cosmos: I brought two people to my house, but realized later that NMC with wide open spaces is much easier for newbies
Eliza Vanalten: with the group i was with te other day…
Chimera Cosmos: especially if they have any lag
Zotarah Shepherd That is the place we have to Mentor new teachers
MLani Montgomery: I agree. They need to meet with me, as an in-world guide, and go through it, but only after they’ve played with an “advanced” av and seen what is possible.
Eliza Vanalten: we rescued all of them from the island and tried to give private tutoring
Phelan Corrimal: Rockcliffe’s orientation program should be ready by the end of this month — we’re hoping that won’t be the same experience
Eliza Vanalten: it was quite hysterical
Zotarah Shepherd Yes MLani
Ilike Fall: well how do you rescue them from there? I tried repeatedly but it didn’t work and was a very frustrating process
AJ Brooks: i brought my whole calss in through NMC – it worked like a charm
Chimera Cosmos: Rockclife is an impresive place to take newbies
Phelan Corrimal: ty πŸ™‚ we are always looking for new ideas to improve
Chimera Cosmos: am I fading out…not seeing what I say
AJ Brooks: we’re getting you chimera
Juice Gyoza: hmmm…good idea…what did you have your students do?
Sheila Yoshikawa: you can offer tp to people in Orientation island, to get them out
AJ Brooks: first I had them sign up for their account before class
Chimera Cosmos: hmmm….wonder why I don’t see it in chat
Ilike Fall: it doesn’t work, at least with me it didn’t
AJ Brooks: then we spent 1/2 of one class just wandering around
Ilike Fall: when they click tp they do not move
15:15] Phelan Corrimal: maybe helicopter rescues — swat team style πŸ™‚
AJ Brooks: with me leading them, but them doing things on their own, then I made it part of their homework
Zotarah Shepherd I tell people to call me as soon as they start to create an account in SL. I will walk them through it.
AJ Brooks: they HAD to get the skills down
Chimera Cosmos: my interestis actually in helping faculty to learn how to be here and teach here
AJ Brooks: or they would fall behind in the calss assignments
Phelan Corrimal: how much time are you spending on having them work the technology rather than the class? I would think the best classes are those were the technology is as seemless as possible
Chimera Cosmos: wow, I just saw something that I said several minutes ago
AJ Brooks: well – at this point, SL is not seemless, so that is just not an option
Zotarah Shepherd The Elven Institute is also giving Basic SL classes and offering Mentors for teachers.
AJ Brooks: but I had them do most of their prep for class as part of thier homework. I gave them one week “grace”, but I also didn’t epxect to omuch from them right away. the technology was intergrated into the teaching. after all – it is still a writing class, so it all has to be about the writing
Phelan Corrimal: this is part of what we were thinking for orientation — having an orientation session outside of Sl to give people an idea of what to expect for the first 10-15 minutes or so once they are inside the environment here
Zotarah Shepherd I was on Help and Orientation for 10 days before I felt comfortable enough to go to the mainland. It was hell.
Phelan Corrimal: lol – 3 days here
AJ Brooks: ugh
Chimera Cosmos: I see we are at the college of humanities and social sciences–are they and science faculty working together at Montclair?
Zotarah Shepherd I kept a detailed journal of the experience.
Ilike Fall: sorry everyone gotta go. I must attend here more often. πŸ™‚ bye for now
AJ Brooks: no
Phelan Corrimal: and that was with the old old version
AJ Brooks: take care
Ilike Fall: thanks AJ
AJ Brooks: hoep tos ee you next week
Chimera Cosmos: anyone here from Montclair?
Zotarah Shepherd It was all for a Technology course project.
AJ Brooks: I am
Mercury Barnes: Naked, into a welcome center — couldn’t wait to get in, though I’d “surfed” over my wife’s shoulder for a week beforehand. πŸ™‚
Phelan Corrimal: nope
AJ Brooks: Sciences have not gotten into SL, Just us since April – AJ Brooks: and the College of Education and HUman Services added their island (the barren one next to us here) about a month ago
Phelan Corrimal: I would love to get into physics and chemistry classes in here
Chimera Cosmos: I’m meeting some
MLani Montgomery: What will the college of education do with it?
Zotarah Shepherd Science Friday has awesome attendance
Phelan Corrimal: not my primiary field thou
Chimera Cosmos: and spreading the word like crazy πŸ™‚
AJ Brooks: I’m not 100% sure, I’m not in on that planning process, but I know they want to let folks experiment and there is also talk of a TG island. Opps – TG = Teen Grid. does everyone know that there is a teen grid?
Chimera Cosmos: oh
Mercury Barnes: yes
MLani Montgomery: Yes, teen grid
AJ Brooks: 13-17
Zotarah Shepherd I work there too.
Chimera Cosmos: I know that John Bransford has an island but it’s private
Zotarah Shepherd On a public island Eye4you
Chimera Cosmos: too bad, their work is great
Phelan Corrimal: well — the 3d engine isn’t robust enough yet to do a lot of things that you can do easier in other applications
AJ Brooks: I”ll be heading over to the TG later this week – well, an alt will at least, going to Ramapo
MLani Montgomery: What will you be doing there?
Phelan Corrimal: Ramapo?
AJ Brooks: some consulting, so mentoring
Zotarah Shepherd Please know the limitations before you go there.
AJ Brooks: I know
MLani Montgomery: Nice.
AJ Brooks: I’ve been working very closely with Maggie Marat
Zotarah Shepherd Load up your alt with lots of stuff.
AJ Brooks nods, my alt has more inventory than this av, lol
Zotarah Shepherd hahaha
AJ Brooks: i think I’ve crashed – can anyoen see this?
Mercury Barnes: Do folks recommend that students get alts?
AJ Brooks: oh – I guess os
Phelan Corrimal: yeo
Sheila Yoshikawa: yes, i can
AJ Brooks: ok
Phelan Corrimal: yep even
Zotarah Shepherd Lindens will help you if you let them know what you need.
AJ Brooks: what would the pupose of the Atl be, Mercury? I don’t reecommend more than one Av unless completely necessary
Zotarah Shepherd Most teens I know have alts for different purposes.
Mercury Barnes: Separate school from play.
AJ Brooks nods
Zotarah Shepherd But the teens I work with are public
AJ Brooks: thats what I did, but I did it because my work pays for my membership
Phelan Corrimal: I know I have 3 alts at the moment
Juice Gyoza: AJ — what documentation do you give your students before taking them in world
Mercury Barnes: However, I’ve noticed that even as alts, I tend, trend, toward a “look” and personna that is “me.”
Zotarah Shepherd I have3 alts 2 here one on the TG
AJ Brooks: no documentation, [15:24] AJ Brooks: most of them took to it like a fish to water
Zotarah Shepherd I almost never run my alt here
Juice Gyoza: do you have them read anything to prepare?
AJ Brooks: no, do you have something in mind?
Phelan Corrimal: I have one that is used for administrative purposes — its online as a bot for general information purposes. Scheduling classes and such
Chimera Cosmos: I use my alt if I need to do things and don’t want to be rude
Mercury Barnes: I “live” in the welcome areas and really see the value of them as a meeting place (something I’ve pushed, probably too much, for all of education within SL).
Phelan Corrimal: depends on the need
Chimera Cosmos: not responding to IMs and the like
Juice Gyoza: one of my courses is fully online, so i am putting some orientation together for them
Zotarah Shepherd If you give teens things to do in SL they will run with it and be very creative, but they seem to get lost with a blank slate.
AJ Brooks: agreed
Phelan Corrimal: adults get lost with a blank slate
Chimera Cosmos: maybe if they enter in pairs?
AJ Brooks: but that is part of what we teach them in college
Sheila Yoshikawa: with my first year (180-19 yesr) class, they had to investigate whether internet addiction and other things ahould deter you from SL – they did a presentation at the end
AJ Brooks: how to think critically
Zotarah Shepherd haha true
Mercury Barnes: Agree Phelan. πŸ™‚
Sheila Yoshikawa: before going into SL, that is
AJ Brooks: that is a big part of what I teach them when they write
Sheila Yoshikawa: that’s *18-19 years* lol
AJ Brooks: we talk VERY little about grammar
Chimera Cosmos: they could spend too much time in RL bars too
AJ Brooks: wait a second, I have two students in their 50s in my class
Phelan Corrimal: times up
AJ Brooks: one of them has become the class expert
Phelan Corrimal: hehe – amazing what you can teach a 50 year old now a days
Juice Gyoza: older students can be the most ambitious
AJ Brooks: I must say, Phelan is right about the time, our hour is up
Phelan Corrimal: doh!
Sloan Skjellerup: lol
Zotarah Shepherd My fellow students are tired of me extoling the virtues of SL. “There she goes on her SL soapbox…”
AJ Brooks: youa re all welcome to stay and hang out
Phelan Corrimal: wasn’t quite what I meant πŸ™‚
AJ Brooks: and continue the conversation, which is exepctional
Sloan Skjellerup: Thank you Aj, this was a lively discussion!
Zotarah Shepherd IS a over 50 year-old.
AJ Brooks: i must go afk for a minute or two
Phelan Corrimal: hehe
AJ Brooks: but we meet here every Tuesday
Chimera Cosmos: Is anyone going to the NMC conference March 8?
Zotarah Shepherd Thanks AJ
AJ Brooks: from 2:30 to 3:30 SLT
Mercury Barnes: I still believe the best use of SL is for “office hours” and “building a sense of community” amongst students — the folks I get in (not in courses) exhibit the “love it or leave it,” attitude, based, I think, on the visuals — you only get into the “social groups” if you’ve hung around (and I think we need to make these more available, sooner, to keep people from bailing).
Phelan Corrimal: don’t look at me — I don’t hit that milestone for awhile yet
Zotarah Shepherd It is full now
Sloan Skjellerup: Mercury .. I agree, that too
Zotarah Shepherd NMC has no more openings : (
Chimera Cosmos: oh, I didn’t know thre was a limit
Sheila Yoshikawa: I’m going
Phelan Corrimal: no more openings?
Chimera Cosmos: but going to a conference is a great introduction for educators
Juice Gyoza: bye all!
Zotarah Shepherd I think they should have an overflow sim
Ozma Malibu: is the march 8 conference the one on mashups?
Sloan Skjellerup: bye Juice πŸ˜‰
Chimera Cosmos: they “get it” right away after a couple of days in SL with presentations by cool folks
Zotarah Shepherd I tried to register and it said all full
AJ Brooks: if anyone has an ideas fo topics for future SL Education Roundtables, please let me know
Phelan Corrimal: ahh
AJ Brooks: bye juice
Zotarah Shepherd The one on mashups is this summer
AJ Brooks: thanks, everyone, for coming
Ozma Malibu: ah, thanks zotarah
Sheila Yoshikawa: at least – I’m going to *a* conference – museums, libraries, educators…
Chimera Cosmos: at the December conference they needed overflow even when it was limited enrollment
Ozma Malibu: bye all
Chimera Cosmos: thanks AJj
Sheila Yoshikawa: bye
AJ Brooks: you folks don’t need to leave, and I’ll hang out as well
Mercury Barnes: I started inhabiting the welcome centers when voice came along — very powerful, very useful (and tons cheaper than the 50K/yr being spent on Elluminate). SL gives presence, meaning folks get comfortable rather quickly (why there are walls and roofs) and voice gives connection.
Phelan Corrimal: thank-you all — was an interesting discussion
Chimera Cosmos: bye Graham
Sheila Yoshikawa: yes thanks
Mercury Barnes: Yes, and I RAIL, against DL’ers not availing themselves of voice. πŸ™‚
Sloan Skjellerup: Yes Yes Yes! Mercury I soo get it too, takes time though I guess
Mercury Barnes: Having had to “get voice”, SL is a godsend,
Sloan Skjellerup: oh, I was delayed … that response was to your last statement re $$ saving …
Stargazer Blazer: what about for deaf students, Mercury?
Zotarah Shepherd I would like to find teachers doing some interesting lesson plans in SL and get a machinima of those.
Mercury Barnes: But I’m a realist and know it’s just too unstable to rely on totally, which is why I push the “office hours and discussion” aspects.
Chimera Cosmos: what discipline Zotarah?
Zotarah Shepherd All of them
Chimera Cosmos: interdisciplinary πŸ™‚
Zotarah Shepherd I want to show the education department at SSU how SL can be used to teach any subject.
Mercury Barnes: What about students without broadband — same discussion, different forum, and yes, I do “play both sides” and work chat with voice — it can be done, and done successfully — tech will catch up with some sort of IBM VIA Widget that will allow headset users to “automagically translate voice into text” (and do seamless language translations — the next “inhibitor” to be tossed in the pathc.”
Zotarah Shepherd I have to get them interested before they will take my proposal seriously
Chimera Cosmos: If Bransford starts doing public things, then folks will pay attention
Chimera Cosmos: everyone knows “How People Learn”, at least in science education they do
Mercury Barnes: Voice is here, it should be used, text is great for background student to student in lectures or duing concerts (some really nice chats from these :).
Zotarah Shepherd It would be nice to have both Mercury
Stargazer Blazer: Hmm, I’m still not sold on voice. I’ve not had much luck with it except one to one.
Chimera Cosmos: the bigger the group, the more I like text
AJ Brooks: i like voice, but it has its place, I couldn’t see using it in class
Zotarah Shepherd You can copy and paste or just save text chat
AJ Brooks: except for me to talk tot eh students
Mercury Barnes: Nice thing about “office hours and discussion” is it tends to be “optional” and not course required, thus if it fails, the students isn’t penalized (deeply).
AJ Brooks: but there would be chaos otherwise
Stargazer Blazer: Chaos in text, AJ?
Chimera Cosmos: obviously you need it for things like the Metanomics shows, simulcast SL and RL things
AJ Brooks: no – in voice – i prefer text, plus – I like keeping the record
Stargazer Blazer: Ah, I’m with you.
Mercury Barnes: The biggest thing I missed taking courses DLing (I’ve done pretty much everything) was the “connection with the instructor” — voice and SL can bring this (voice alone isn’t enough, there’s something about a visual avatar wandering around that fills a “need”).
Chimera Cosmos: yes, very much more powerful to have the presence
Zotarah Shepherd Agreed Mercury
Chimera Cosmos: avatar
Mercury Barnes: Chimera understands (at least why my belief is :).
Stargazer Blazer: I’ve attended presentations where voice wasnt’ successful (i.e. It didn’t work) and I’m a big fan of that new fangled contraption, the telephone. πŸ™‚
Mercury Barnes: what…:)
Zotarah Shepherd I will also be looking for teachers to teach classes in Life-Skills
Stargazer Blazer: Well, when you get more than 20 people on a sim, voice sort of breaks down, it’s a whole other set of issues.
Sloan Skjellerup: <— looking for life skills! hehehe Stargazer Blazer: That sounds like you can’t establish “presence” without voice. AJ Brooks: or as we say here in Jersey – a whole nother set Sloan Skjellerup: I have to scoot … much to learn , thank you I enjoyed this very much AJ Brooks: hoep to see you again, Sloan Mercury Barnes: SL isn’t “the best thing on the planet,” or the only, but it does work, and what becomes really attractive to students is when they start wandering around and being themselves — this was the source of the alt question/comment — segregating their “life” seems important (as I’ve learned through my alts). AJ Brooks: thanks for coming Sloan Skjellerup: you betcha! Zotarah Shepherd I will also be creating immersive builds to teach life skills and self-esteem, And teaching teachers to do that also. Stargazer Blazer: And I disagree with that notion. I have been in fully online courses where you use text only. I think everyone established “presence” by their writing tone and voice. Mercury Barnes: πŸ™‚ Chimera Cosmos: my 21 and 25 year olds refuse to check it out and think it’s very weird that I”m here. they say SL is “lame”, but they have been techies since childhood Stargazer Blazer: Well, there is no “objective”, nothing to do to advance to the next level. You can’t ‘win’ sl. Chimera Cosmos: my son is big on WoW – yes Stargazer Blazer: There you go Chimera Cosmos: my daughter uses MySpace or something Zotarah Shepherd It is easy to label something. Most just do not see SL as a platform. They expect a game, rules etc – not user created. Chimera Cosmos: they have dozens of contacts around the world – very different from us at that age Stargazer Blazer: Well, how could we, there was no Internet then. I had a pen pal in Australia when I was a kid. πŸ˜› Mercury Barnes: A common question int he welcome areas is “So what do you do here, I’ve played World or Warcraft.” I respond, “WW has rules, and you “win” against the rules, SL is life, where you “win” against yourself — which is more challenging? Zotarah Shepherd If you set a lump of clay before a student who does not know what to do with it, the clay will seem lame. Stargazer Blazer: You also get to define the goals. “Winning” may be running a successful business or making a difference through collaboration. Zotarah Shepherd Once you teach them the possibilities and opportunities they can be creative. Mercury Barnes: And “winning aginst yourself,” is education — what we’re all interested in. πŸ™‚ AJ Brooks: absolutely, this is why I see the Student Center project as so important. it will help them netwqork with each other around the world Stargazer Blazer: Good thing we have critical thinking to solve that problem. πŸ™‚ Mercury Barnes: πŸ™‚ Stargazer Blazer: I’ve heard of this Student Center, but I don’t know the details. I won’t labor you to re-facilitate the discussion. AJ Brooks: not at all – I am spearheading a project, with NMC and a few others from within SL to create a centralize student center on the NMC orientation island. let me get you the blog link – one moment Zotarah Shepherd It is hard tfor techie and WoW students to wrap their minds around so much freedom to create. AJ Brooks: http://sorry-afk.blogspot.com/2008/01/sl-student-center.html Stargazer Blazer: Thanks, AJ. AJ Brooks: sure – please contribute to that blog if you have ideas. this truly needs to be a community effort Stargazer Blazer: Ok, I’d love to. AJ Brooks: in order for it to succeede Zotarah Shepherd When they see what others have done they might think – Oh everything has already been created and there is nothing new left to create. So we have to empower them in small steps. AJ Brooks: if we don’t get them excited about this, the way we are, it will be just like blackabord to them AJ Brooks: a place to come to learn, and thats it Zotarah Shepherd Empower them to disagree Mercury Barnes: Yes, I agree with the WW issue, it is hard, similar to instructors and ID’s who come into SL — they never get in deep enough to “see” it’s potential — why I think there needs to something, earlier, that catches their attention and has them “logging in the next night.” Stargazer Blazer: Wow, I hope they don’t think that in rl, Zotarah. Stargazer Blazer giggles. Yes, Mercury, I got sucked in straight away. Mercury Barnes: Some do, I was one, but a lot just bail and walk away — it is an issue. Zotarah Shepherd Oh some do. I helped in an art class and students said they were board. The teacher worked on getting their creative juices going. Stargazer Blazer: I don’t know that it’s for everyone, just like online isn’t for everyone. In the future, it may very well be. Mercury Barnes: I tell the story of talking with a builder one evening, who was showing me “SL physics” and asked him the simple question “Uhh, do we weight anything within SL?” Zotarah Shepherd It is hard to be innovative when school has been filled with fill-in-the-blanks workbooks, memorization and dull lectures. Stargazer Blazer: Zotarah, that seems like the perfect environment in which to Be innovative. Mercury Barnes: We spent the next four hours making a “picture perfect” fulcram balance so we could weight ourselves (I weight 0.72 m^3 of wood BTW — something for you females to worry about). Zotarah Shepherd haha Mercury Stargazer Blazer giggles. I have often asked if my weight has had bearing on things falling or sinking while I am on/riding. Mercury Barnes: These “teachable moments” that really mesh SL with real life and catch the attention of students are still likely to be rare. Zotarah Shepherd My alt is 6’2 and probably weighs 135. all muscle from so amny activities and flying. hehe Mercury Barnes: However, with voice, I can “take control” within minutes (seconds sometimes) of a SIM and have folks learning “when they don’t even realize they are, but are happy.” — this is the “hard task” that faces us. πŸ™‚ Zotarah Shepherd The better my AVs are the more I sit here gaining weight and loosing muscle tone, so it is a challenge to bring my AV discipline into RL. Stargazer Blazer: Hmmm, we have given a business course here that has taught rl business principles and applied them to sl. Students were then given a space to build their businesses. I think it is a perfect blend of sl and rl. Stargazer Blazer nods to Zotarah, “I know what you mean.” Mercury Barnes: :> Xotarah (I figured out shoes just so I could get that 2″ that “makes me taller” than others. )
Zotarah Shepherd We need to share techniques and examples of what works in SL
Mercury Barnes: Yes, and I’m not sure how best to do it. SL still suffers from the “Our College spent money, so we have to show “owned users” issue.”
Stargazer Blazer: Yes, if I go to one more rl conference presentation about what sl is and how to get started, I’m going to puke.
Zotarah Shepherd On a elven rp sim where I play (and learn) I have to be at least 6′ to compete with a sword in tournaments.
Mercury Barnes: If educators, and administrators, were willing to subsume for a bit, then a “greater good” could develop.
Zotarah Shepherd They need to try it to really get it.
Stargazer Blazer: I had to do that, Zotarah. And i didn’t really try any education stuff until I’d been in world for about a year.
Mercury Barnes: However, I fully (fully), understand the dynamics of most institutions and their “investment” in such a succioulous place with “SEX, my God,” (though they should visit a dorm :), that it will take time (and I’m willing to give it time, simply because I know this is the start of the future .)
Mercury Barnes: Like the Web in the early 90
Chimera Cosmos: sorry got to go–chatting with someone I’ve got to meet with
Zotarah Shepherd There is a comfort level you reach in SL where you know what you can do and how to do it.
AJ Brooks: bye chimera
Chimera Cosmos: see you next time I hope
AJ Brooks: thanks for coming
Chimera Cosmos: bye
AJ Brooks: hope to see you next week
Chimera Cosmos: I’m really 59 years old and have grey hair you know πŸ™‚
Stargazer Blazer: Nice chatting, Chimera.
AJ Brooks: stargazer, mercury, shiela, joice, ozma, clair – join us at the table. πŸ™‚
Chimera Cosmos: I chose to go back to my 20s for some of the time hahaha
Mercury Barnes: (I’m from the campus that created Mosaic — and PLATO :).
Zotarah Shepherd Mercury SL is a venue like a city good and not so good elements.
Stargazer Blazer: Does it matter? That’s the great thing about sl, who you are is what is important. We can all be lovely on the outside.
AJ Brooks: πŸ™‚
Mercury Barnes: AJ, thank you for making this an “Educause event,” because I might be able to justify bugging out 45 minutes early to “ensure” I can attend. πŸ™‚
AJ Brooks: ?
Zotarah Shepherd But do administrators say well we cannot build a university in this city because they allow a XXX theaters in one part of it?
Mercury Barnes: (And I tend to be quieter as time goes on, but with a first contact, figured folks needed to “size me up.” :).
Zotarah Shepherd I just turned 59 oin the 19th
AJ Brooks: oh – you mean that I advertise this on teh EDUCAUSE list
Stargazer Blazer: I think the biggest thing is differentiating between rl and sl. We are Adults. This is a cartoon world. Run by rl people, but porn is on the internet, too. It actually helped form the Internet.
AJ Brooks: yes – the things people are saying now are the same things they said in the 90s. about the WWW
Mercury Barnes: I’m on the “edges” of DL information, but I got two notices, and a will to come, so your “marketing” worked (and we’ll see if I can cajole Athena into coming == everyone likes her :).
Stargazer Blazer: (Sorry, I get excited and streams of thoughts just come out.) Yes, AJ, ageed.
Stargazer Blazer: *agreed even.
AJ Brooks: πŸ™‚
Stargazer Blazer: Well, if this is the infancy of the 3D Internet, just imagine what it will be like in 5 years.
AJ Brooks: well, Mercury, glad to hear the efforts are appreciated
Mercury Barnes: And no, Stargazer, this is not “cartoon world.” πŸ™‚ (PERIOD :).
AJ Brooks: stargazer, I can’t imagine
Zotarah Shepherd I hope so Stargazer
Mercury Barnes: and exit for me. πŸ™‚
AJ Brooks: I wonder if Mercury would show up for a meeting in RL in a kimono πŸ™‚
Stargazer Blazer: Hmm, looks like cartoons.
Zotarah Shepherd I do not see this as a cartoon world but can see how some would.
Stargazer Blazer: I can jump on a poseball, but I’m not really kissing anyone, it just looks like it. I”m sitting at my computer, typing.
AJ Brooks: and its not evern REALLY3d
Stargazer Blazer: I know that is a controversial thing to say.

Originally uploaded by AJ Brooks. Downloaded from http://sler-transcripts.wikispaces.com/080304 by Sheila Yoshikawa, June 2018

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